Girder 4 = for everyone or just LUA experts??

[tonyG]

OK a little provocative title!

I have been using girder for 2/3 years, and have developed a whole control/UI solution using 3.29 and XPOSD and HTMLOSD plugins.

What drew me to girder was the vitues of a simple interface coupled with plugins that handle specific requirements.

The plugins were ideal for novices, and they "steared" you through.

My concern is this: everything seems to be possible with girder 4 - as long as you can program LUA! many answers in the forums now start with "thats easy with LUA".

I WANT TO HEAR "Thats easy with Girder"!!

LUA is powerful, it may even be straightforward to learn - but it isn't girder - and it isn't a solution for "Joe Public".

1) What is the direction of girder?
2) Who is it intended for?
3) Can we please see a new version of HTMLOSD?? - for OSD it makes so much sense - you can use HTML editors etc and create very powerful UIs without being a programmer. (I really don't mind if the backend is LUA)

Questioning over - feel calmer now!

[Promixis]

Hi,

Good questions...

You can still do most things from the Girder Action Tree. The tree in G4 has more features/controls then G3.3

You can do even more things using lua. Lua gives you flexibility that is hard or impossible to build into the tree. But we still want to make the Action tree as powerful and easy to use as ever. So if there is something missing in the tree that you think we should have, ask.

[Promixis]

And with the IE object you can do all sorts of neat HTML type osd stuff.

Let me know if you want to see some code on how to do it.

[tonyG]

Thanks Mike,

I'm going to take a good look at both suggestions.

Either way, it looks like I'm a little behind the times!

[Mastiff]

Hey, one year ago I knew nothing about Lua and couldn't code to save my life. Now I know next to nothing, but I'm able to do a lot of fun stuff...with a little help from my friends... :oops:

[quixote]

Hey, one year ago I knew nothing about Lua and couldn't code to save my life. Now I know next to nothing, but I'm able to do a lot of fun stuff...with a little help from my friends... :oops:

Same here, well, with a lot of help from my friends, but you can still do quite a bit with only the basics. The advanced stuff I just sort of gawk at, but it's something to aspire to! :)

[jwilson56]

I would like to see some 'wizards' built into Girder4 with some basic routines that could help newbies out with the LUA code. I agree that LUA is more powerful but if Girder is to ever appeal to the main stream it has to be a bit more 'out of the box' and not have such a steep learning curve.

Also maybe some more on screen panels with tabs to help setup your X10 devices for instance. I know from seeing the NeCallerID panel Mike created that this is a slick feature built into Girder4. If Girder wants to be the next step for people using ActiveHome for instance you should be able to setup simple X10 events and conditionals with little training.

John

[quixote]

... you should be able to setup simple X10 events and conditionals with little training.


You can, and you don't need LUA for that.
Forgive me if I'm wrong, but I think that LUA is there mostly for more advanced users that want even more flexibility. I see your point and partly agree with you that there are a lot of things that could be simplified, but as with most things, the more complicated the task you wish to achieve, the more complicated the solution.

[Promixis]

I would like to see some 'wizards' built into Girder4 with some basic routines that could help newbies out with the LUA code. I agree that LUA is more powerful but if Girder is to ever appeal to the main stream it has to be a bit more 'out of the box' and not have such a steep learning curve.

Also maybe some more on screen panels with tabs to help setup your X10 devices for instance. I know from seeing the NeCallerID panel Mike created that this is a slick feature built into Girder4. If Girder wants to be the next step for people using ActiveHome for instance you should be able to setup simple X10 events and conditionals with little training.

John

This is something you will see once we are confident the core is solid. ie not more changes that break things like the last treescript update. So we will have a x10 panel that lets you add devices etc and then you can pick them from the tree or event list.

[avid]

You can still do most things from the Girder Action Tree. The tree in G4 has more features/controls then G3.3

You can do even more things using lua. Lua gives you flexibility that is hard or impossible to build into the tree. But we still want to make the Action tree as powerful and easy to use as ever. So if there is something missing in the tree that you think we should have, ask.
Mike,

While personally I have no problems with G4 needing a lot done in Lua, my limited experiments with it have shown up at least one example where Lua is now needed, where with G3 it is not. My G3 GML uses the SetWaveDev plug-in, with a simple drop-down menu to select my audio device. The equivalent capability requires a Lua call [ and I am ignoring the additional difficulty that this call has no documentation :D ].

Also, the power of Lua can lead plug-in developers (who of course are going to be comfortable with Lua) to offer the plug-in capabilty only through Lua functions. But might this not end up alienating a large sector of potential users who can see Lua as scary code??

It's a difficult call. And it might also affect NR soon too.

Brian

[Promixis]

You can still do most things from the Girder Action Tree. The tree in G4 has more features/controls then G3.3

You can do even more things using lua. Lua gives you flexibility that is hard or impossible to build into the tree. But we still want to make the Action tree as powerful and easy to use as ever. So if there is something missing in the tree that you think we should have, ask.
Mike,

While personally I have no problems with G4 needing a lot done in Lua, my limited experiments with it have shown up at least one example where Lua is now needed, where with G3 it is not. My G3 GML uses the SetWaveDev plug-in, with a simple drop-down menu to select my audio device. The equivalent capability requires a Lua call [ and I am ignoring the additional difficulty that this call has no documentation :D ].

Also, the power of Lua can lead plug-in developers (who of course are going to be comfortable with Lua) to offer the plug-in capabilty only through Lua functions. But might this not end up alienating a large sector of potential users who can see Lua as scary code??

It's a difficult call. And it might also affect NR soon too.

Brian

Brian,

Have you seen the treescript plugin? With a few lines of code, you can quickly build dynamic config and action menus. So, in your case, I can add the setwavedevice to the action tree very easily.

I agree, the tree is important. We don't want to be a scripting only solution.

[bill.jessep]

Hi,

Just some feedback from a novice. I have been using G3.3 and recently upgraded to G4 B8 because I wanted to do more stuff like, Voice Recognition, Caller ID, X.10 naturally and some media centre control via NR and I thought it best to do it once.

'Out of the Box' I have Voice Recognition working and turning my lights on/off using X.10. I expect this will also do some media control when I can get G4 on my laptop to talk to G4 running the media centre. NR is working my media centre and X.10 (after a little fun) all without any lua.

I did have to replace the SAY command with some lua code, however with a little help from some examples it was not too hard. (monkey see monkey do really) I think the power of Girder is it is a compromise between fixed point and click configuration which by its nature will have limitations to a script only approach which is not for a novice.

Having said that I think my next tasks will need lots of script to get it working so this means that us poor mortals that have trouble typing little only programming will need lots of help

------
Bill

[quixote]

Can you explain how you accomplished speech recognition to a fellow mortal? :wink:
Which other programs are you using in conjunction?

[bill.jessep]

I am running XP and I installed Office Word which loaded speech recognition. Then I loaded the Speech plugin and changed the included xml file with the phrases I needed.

Just followed the example and it all works nicely for me. I have a quiet unit so I can get away with it on an old laptop. I am still working on getting the laptop to send messages to my other system that is running the Media Player. Just had to keep it simple for this old fella.

__________
BJ

[quixote]

Nice. So the old speech plugin works with G4?

[jwilson56]

Hey for us newbies it would be great to see some GML files uploaded that had examples of how to do things. I found a file called 'LUA Scripting Examples.zip' but the examples don't seem to run under G4. Maybe a 'sticky' thread could be started that would have working examples of how to do things (TTS, VR, X10 events, ect). So that a newbie could download them and play around. I for one am like many others. I learn best by studying working examples.

I will give you an example.... I am looking for help to do this:

When my W800 receives an 'Off' (from a Powerflash module) on 'P1' it would fire off a TTS anouncement "The clothes are dry". Right now I don't have a clue on how to handle that kind of event. Again a GML would be nice as it could be loaded to play around with.

John

[Promixis]

John, this is something John Hind and I have been talking about adding to the manual. Its great when we get a request for an example so we can see the kinds of things we are going to cover.

For X10, we are planning on wrapping all the various device events into a global table that can track and manage these events.

Voice will also get siimpler.

some of this will be in beta 9

[/code]

[jwilson56]

Ok here is another one:

The W800 gets a 'M1' 'On' from a X10 motion detector. This fires off an event that turns on the light 'A11' if the time is between 7:00am and 11:00pm. It also sets up a timer that would shut off 'A11' after 30 minutes. If further motion is detected it will keep resetting the timer to 30 minutes. The lights would then stay on as long as there is motion detected in the room. I use this in a few location around the house.

John

[quixote]

That's ok, as long as you wave your arms around if you are sitting there watching TV.

I have something similar set up for my bathroom, but for 5 minutes. The light turns off on occassion while I'm still in there, so I've decided to built a device that uses a laser pointer wired to an ac adapter, rebounding the laser off the doorframe about a dozen times with little mirrors, and ending at an active eye motion sensor. The motion sensor has a photoresistor to send an x10 signal when the beam is broken. This way when you walk in the light will turn on and stay on until you break the beam again. I'm thinking of filling my entire flat with rebounding laser beams when I go out for an alarm system, kind of like you see in the movies in museums. It would probably only take 4 or 5 lasers and motion sensors.

Sorry. A bit off topic, I know, but I couldn't help myself. I'll leave you guys alone. :oops:

[jwilson56]

Hey no problem... doubt we could get OT in this thread.... I like to hear how other people automate their homes... in fact we need more of this.... again I would suggest people post their code examples. Not everyone is at the same level, so even some simple things might stump a newbie. I know that when I started playing with Netremote I found other people's CFF files invaluable in learning how NR works.

So please post away with GML files or code snippets. I think in the long run we will all learn from each other.

Thanks

John