PS2 UIR schematic

[mechou]

I am sorry but that is impossible. The 3 pin devices are double photodiodes or phototransistors, one common collector and two seperate emmiters. I have used them for some simple projects. They won't be able to give an unmodulated signal to the PIC, and writting code for an already programmed PIC to do the unmodulating would be quite impossible. :-(
Sorry to be such a spoil party, but......

Perhaps I can clarify my objectives a bit. I'm trying to leverage the mouse packaging and PCB. This means I more than happy to replace components like PIC, XTAL, IR RX module (such as called for in Ruud's UIRT schematic), "blue wire" it all up, what have you, so I have a nice, presentable, *working* package at the end of the day. I *don't* have to use the 3-pin (detector) component (or even the traces) that came on the original mouse.

I don't mind breadboarding, but turning the breadboard into a presentable package is a real pain, a chore I really like to avoid. Not to mention all the nasty PC interface voltage issues that can be avoided w/ mouse.

I too have concerns like is the RX range going to be good enough with a FrankenMouse (TM) UIRT...But I would like to know what exactly those 3-pin detector components are on the original mouse.

Am I still smoking dope?? 8) Say it ain't so!!

Thanks,
Mark

[gkour]

I am sorry but that is impossible. The 3 pin devices are double photodiodes or phototransistors, one common collector and two seperate emmiters. I have used them for some simple projects. They won't be able to give an unmodulated signal to the PIC, and writting code for an already programmed PIC to do the unmodulating would be quite impossible. :-(
Sorry to be such a spoil party, but......

[Robin]

Sorry Mechou, didn't mean to be quite so negative.

Extracting the PIC shouldn't be too hard, especially as you don't want to keep it afterwards :wink: ... I still don't think those IR Receivers are suited, although they're obviously more intelligent than standard IR Photodiodes.

One thought that did come to mind (but only after someone mentioned the MS Mouse) is that there used to be several IR based mice ... you remember, the ones that needed line of sight to communicate with the PC.

I never owned one, but if anyone can remember the manufacturer of such a device maybe we could 'borrow' the drivers :roll: and adapt this PS2 UIRT to suit ?

[Robin]

I don't mean to be picky but:
1 - The PIC ISN'T a flash PIC, so there's no reprogramming.
2 - IR Photodiodes are not suited to this application, you need an intelligent IR Receiver (3 pin device).
3 - A mouse is about 5 times bigger than the box the UIRT needs.

But you could just cut out a few resistors and the IR LEDs to save yourselves a few pence ... :smile:

[jediperry]

definatly not flash reprogramable some of the xxCxx ones have UV windows, but its not very likly in an app that was never intended to be reprogrammed.

[Ron]

That PIC controller probably isn't reprogrammable :sad:

[mechou]

On 2002-04-04 11:14, Dr Zarcov wrote:
Ruud, After looking over your schematic and concept for PS/2 UIR, it occured to me that the circuit isn't all that different from a PS/2 mouse. So I opened up a spare microsoft Basic Mouse, and sure enough..18 pin PIC Micro with osc, "power supply" 2 IR emitters, 2 IR photodiodes, 2 switches, and of course the PS/2 connector and mouse "case". Seems like all one would have to do is port your Pic code for the mouse layout,add a IR reciever module in place of a photodiode, maybe cut a hole, and your done!

Dr Zarcov


Blast!! It's so obvious in hindsight...Sigh. I opened up my MS mouse too, and lo and behold, PIC16C58B-08. This is a good way to recycle old mice too since I've personally moved on to an optical mouse. All those folks who wanted SMT PCBs ought to be pleased too. Saves folks from having to order parts...

Since I'm not an EE, can someone with HW experience look over (and try) this idea?

Later,
Mark

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: mechou on 2002-04-04 11:56 ]</font>

[Dr Zarcov]

Ruud, After looking over your schematic and concept for PS/2 UIR, it occured to me that the circuit isn't all that different from a PS/2 mouse. So I opened up a spare microsoft Basic Mouse, and sure enough..18 pin PIC Micro with osc, "power supply" 2 IR emitters, 2 IR photodiodes, 2 switches, and of course the PS/2 connector and mouse "case". Seems like all one would have to do is port your Pic code for the mouse layout,add a IR reciever module in place of a photodiode, maybe cut a hole, and your done!

Dr Zarcov

[Ruud]

Hi All, sorry, I don't have too much time at the moment to finish the VxD, to be quite honnest, I could use some help in creating it since as I said, I really am quite busy at the moment.

Anyway, here is the schematic. If I hit the boot switch the computer will startup, (firmware ready and tested) that was the easy part. WINxx instantly recognises a PS2 mouse and installs the driver for it. Now we need a VxD to divert the mouse(UIR) packages to a plugin for girder

Regards
Ruud

Erh, How do I attach a PDF to this message???

[Ruud]

I have posted the PDF to the UIR mailing list...Since I dunno how to attach it to this message

uirlist@yahoogroups.com

Regards

Ruud

[Wykat]

Somebody knows how to get the schematics ?? . I can subscribe to the mail list, but then I probably get the new mails, not the already posted ones.....

Wykat

[Ruud]

On 2002-03-29 07:23, Wykat wrote:
Somebody knows how to get the schematics ?? . I can subscribe to the mail list, but then I probably get the new mails, not the already posted ones.....

Wykat


Hi again, Nope, that used to be possible without subscribing.. Not anymore I guess. Any sugestions on how to publish the PDF schematic? (I am fighting with my ISP for months now since they also host my site.. I can't upload to it due to a TECHNICAL problem at their side).

Sorry,
Ruud

[Ron]

Send it to me, I'll upload it at the Girder site.

[Ron]

Here it is:

http://www.girder.nl/uirt/ps2uir.gif

( http://www.girder.nl/uirt/ps2uir.gif )

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: RonB on 2002-03-29 12:22 ]</font>

[Lloyd Gordon]

Is there firmware and girder dll available for the PS2 schematic?

[Ron]

I'll be working closely with Ruud the next couple of weeks to write a driver and a plugin while Ruud will handle the firmware. I don't think there is software available yet.

-Ron

[windtrader]

Does the boot contact at 1 and 2, allow the PC to do a hard reboot? Sorry if this is lame but I don't read circuits.

Also, if I want to extend the receiver or transmitter LED can this be done with this design or would it need to be modified? I'd like to have multiple transmitter LEDs hooked up to different devices and have the receiver placed in a different room than the PC.

Thanks,
Don

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: windtrader on 2002-03-30 01:33 ]</font>

[oe1k]

Just to confirm: this design will be able to turn-on the PC from an IR event, correct? I assume the "boot" switch is mostly just for testing purposes.

-Richard

[Ron]

I do not have the exact details yet, but I'm pretty certain it will be able to boot on a IR event. ( as long as the PC has an ATX power supply and is switched 'on' )

I have not been following the whole UIRT thing closely so forgive any errors here, i'm just getting up to speed my self.

[Wykat]

Can I start building the hardware ?! :wink: . All the components are already there.

I hope it will support the resume from suspend to RAM. Just discovered how well this works on my HTPC. Just a mouse movement and there it goes again without booting :smile:) .

Tried to build an UIRT2, but somehow I can't get this to work. Used the John Rees schematic and software, but it just didn't work (also not with the original Ruud design).
The PS2 solution looks however promissing since it will work without internal cabling and with some mouse movement I'll have resume from RAM too

Wykat

[Ruud]

Hi all,
I have posted a reply but somehow it has gone to......

OK, here is the status.

The current version has firmware which simply emulates a mouse. If your computer is able to start up on a PS/2 mouse button, it will also be able to start-up on an IR remote control key since the UIR can post a button message when ever it wants. The boot switch is indeed only for testing purposes. I had a talk with Ron yesterday and I think together we will be able to create a nice Girder Plugin (thanx Ron) for the PS/2 UIR..

The only dis atvantage will be that you need a programmer to program the PIC since there is no (easy) way to get 12V from the PS/2.

There won't be any power problems (ie if the device works on 1 machine, it will work on all).

Regards
Ruud

[Ruud]

Hey, I am semi experienced now :wink:

[Wykat]

just past 100 :smile: :smile: .

I'm using your 'old' UIRT to program the PIC. That should be OK, or....

Wykat

[windtrader]

What's the details on PIC programmers? If we need to get a separate programmer, maybe someone has one that would be willing to burn some chips and send on to those building the UIRT. Or, any links to the specific programmer for this use?

[Ron]

http://www.jdm.homepage.dk/newpic.htm

I was told by Ruud that this should do just fine, I actually have this one and used this to burn my UIR pic. Pretty cheap to make.

-Ron

[Sandros]

I have the exact same programmer, it works really well together with icprog.

[mechou]

I don't mean to be picky but:
1 - The PIC ISN'T a flash PIC, so there's no reprogramming.
2 - IR Photodiodes are not suited to this application, you need an intelligent IR Receiver (3 pin device).
3 - A mouse is about 5 times bigger than the box the UIRT needs.

But you could just cut out a few resistors and the IR LEDs to save yourselves a few pence ... :smile:

1. I acknowledge that the PIC on mouse isn't flashable, but I can desolder (or butcher :) ) that and put the correct PIC in its place. There is the the oscillator will have to be changed as well, but that's readily available.
2. I double-checked. The MS mouse uses 3 pin IR receivers . I'm not sure whether MS mouse uses receiver modules or phototransistors, but they are definitely 3 pin devices.
3. I would think mouse is small enough for most people, but maybe other folks have different needs.

The mouse idea appeals to me because of its simplicity. I have one now. I don't have to go to various places to scrounge for parts, wonder whether to put in various caps or resistors (for voltage), make a PCB, come up with a "(plastic) package," etc. Pretty much everything is in one place, and I *know* the mouse will interface correctly on virtually any PS/2 PC w/o problems. If necessay you could even put a PS/2 to DB9 adapter. If I need another mouse I can go down to the local surplus store & get one for US$3. Just shipping on the parts alone will cost me more than that.

Even I'm not naive enough to think it's as simple as drilling a hole in mouse and soldering in IR RX module. Maybe some "blue wires" will be necessary. But I maintain it would be relatively easy to do for most people than kit building.

What do you folks think?

Later,
Mark

[Ruud]

Hi all,

About the PIC micro,

OK, the PIC might not be reprogrammable but if it is an OTP version we may just be able to patch the fw a little to make it work. I will of course need the hex file of the PIC and lets hope the code isn't locked..

I imagine the mouse firmware doesn't use all the code memory available so there will be some space left with unprogrammed cells which is still writable.

It's a long shot but perhaps worth a try, those mice are damn cheap..

Regards
Ruud

[Dr Zarcov]

I was going to post a clarification to the idea of using a modified mouse for a UIRT, but Mark has done a much better job than would I. :wink: I just want to point out that there are a lot of people who want an IR transceiver for their PC's, but building one from scratch could be somewhat overwhelming. Obviously the Micro has to be replaced, as well as the IR semiconductors, but beyond that and a few minor mods, I think it would be much more doable for the average Girder lover. For example, the phototransistors are layed-out in such a way that a part like the FH506, or TSOP1738 would just pop in their place(backwards). Then just replace a 15k resistor with a jumper wire, and you're detector portion of the circuit is done. The main thing is changing the port pin assignments of the new PIC code to match those of the mouse. (I'll bet a schematic would help huh?) I could reverse-engineer a couple of different mouse models (ones that use pin compatible PICS obviously) if the code developers would like to pursue this idea further?

~Zarcov

[mechou]

I just want to point out that there are a lot of people who want an IR transceiver for their PC's, but building one from scratch could be somewhat overwhelming.
~Zarcov

Word!! I regard this (building from scratch) as the primary "barrier to entry" for most girder lovers. I'm sure a lot of folks wouldn't like a proto board hanging off the back of the PC as a UIRT.

Zarcov, if you can provide schematics of relevant portions of mod-mouse I'll be more than happy to code. I used to be a developer in my former life. I don't have any dev. experience with girder or its plugins, but it really shouldn't be _that_ difficult (hopefully these aren't famous last words :) ).

[Robin]

What's wrong with proto-board hanging out the back of a PC ? :P

Besides, if you've got to go to all the trouble of rebuilding a board to fit into a mouse casing, adapting circuitry that varies from mouse to mouse, buying new components that won't have the range or features, JUST so you can use the PS/2 wire and the mouse shell ... wouldn't you feel stupid if someone mistook your beloved UIRT for an ordinary mouse ?

Surely the extra few quid from the same hardware shop for a miniature casing is worth it ? By all means, use the bits that would otherwise be binned (i.e. cable and possibly IR leds), but don't go using the case just to save a pound or two !

My own UIRT is built into the wooden unit that houses my HTPC ... it's two pieces of wood nailed together, stained to match the furniture and carefully drilled to house the IR components ... it cost nothing and nobody mistakes it for something it isn't ! :wink:

[mechou]

wouldn't you feel stupid if someone mistook your beloved UIRT for an ordinary mouse ?


Au contraire, mon ami...It will be quite a conversation piece in my HTPC setup.

"What's a mouse doing next to your HDTV?"

"That's not a mouse... Look carefully...It's an universal infrared transceiver."

I imagine this alone will add 10 points to my geek status... :)

Seriously tho, Robin, I suspect you and I are starting out with different equipment. From a HW perspective, I consider myself lucky to know which end of the soldering iron to hold. Making a PCB, photoresist, etch, blah blah, fit in a plastic casing, each step is a chore and an additional expense (i.e. I'd have to get photoresist and etch solution, not to mention the other "basics"). If I add it all up I be better off spending ~$35 getting a pre-made professional job than some hacked proto board clapped in betw. two wooden boards.

It's mainly the "hassle" factor for a one-off item, not really the expense (even tho this too figures in the final analysis.)

[Robin]

I hadn't thought of the conversation starting aspect :wink:

I too have never made my own PCBs, although I wouldn't mind giving it a try ... I used a piece of veroboard about 2"x3", soldered an 18 pin socket to it and basically stuck all the other bits round it.

As the thing is concealed behind the two bits of wood mentioned earlier it really doesn't matter what it looks like (plus I have other connectors for a power switch & LED).

Thought I might mention that the "wooden boards" you mention are actually two pieces of wood, 6" tall (shelf height) by about 1.5" wide, shaped like an "L" ... all electronics are concealed between the L and the TV unit, with good access from the back of the unit ... and it's definitely not as tacky as you made it sound.

It still starts conversations though ... when the machine turns itself on, either due to WOL or WOIR, and I start using my remote for MP3 / DVD / E-Mail ! :D

[Lloyd Gordon]

Hi,
I've seen the proposed circuit for the PS2 UIRT. Will there be a final version of the circuit where a particular (learned) infrared code could turn the computer on? Any news on firmware and Girder dll for the PS2 UIRT schematic? If I've missed the above, let me know, please.
-Thanks
-Lloyd

[Wykat]

bump... and a request


would it be possible to 'turn on' the PC after a specified delay :P . This means I specify to record a movie at 11:00 and it is 7.30 now, the module nows (calc, calc, cald, calc.....) to switch on the PC at 10.55 :)

Wykat

[Robin]

What a really cool idea ...

As you're going to have to have the PC 'instruct' the UIRT to go into 'only recognise Power request' mode every time the PC shuts down, it shouldn't be too hard to tell it to 'switch on by Power request, or in nnn minutes' instead.

I have one of my PC's set to automatically wake at 6:28pm every day, but it can't take more than one wake-up time and this has to be set in BIOS ... the only other way was to use my 'Suspend-To-RAM' and just set multiple events that wake the PC ...

Does anyone have the source code for the UIRT yet (not the hex, but the asm) as I'd like to know a little more of what's going on, without having to disassemble and guess !

Robin