Multiport serial cards

[TooManyDevices]

I need to receive IR from 8 different locations, and need the ability to determine which location sent the signal. I am thinking about using low-cost solutions such as the LIRC-style RS232 receivers and emitters, along with a pair of 8-port serial cards. 8 RS232 ports would receive the signals, 2 more would send RS232 commands to matrix switching equipment, and the remaining 6 ports would drive LIRC IR emitters.

Can Girder handle this?

[Ron]

Those Lirc rx/tx units do they have a onboard processing unit? (like a PIC) If not this might not be very reliable.

[TooManyDevices]

They don't have a PIC-style general purpose controller, but they do have an IR-specific receiver IC:

http://www.lirc.org/receivers.html

[Ron]

Yeah looks like the processing will be done on the CPU. The problem being that you will get crappy recognition. Already one unit is trouble for some people. Let alone have a whole bunch. My advise is to not go done that road, you can try but I forsee trouble.

[Todd Reed]

Maybe this could be done with the ADI stuff?

www.appdig.com

Use an Ocelot controller $150 and a SECU16IR input module $100 and the Ocelot plugin, (nearly finished!)

Then use individual IR triggers from each channel...

[TooManyDevices]

I'll have to take your word for it -- I can't see how a relatively fast PC could have problems picking up slow IR signals, but I haven't tried it yet, either. :D

What I'm trying to do is avoid spending $3000 on Xantech hardware.

If this LIRC stuff isn't reliable, I'm open to affordable solutions. I think my initial post outlines it all -- 8 incoming IR signals, 2 outbound RS232 signals, 6 outbound IR signals. I'm not opposed to spending money, but I don't want to simply pay top dollar for a brand name, and that seems to be the case with Xantech (their IR-to-RS232 converter is $206)...

[TooManyDevices]

Maybe this could be done with the ADI stuff?

www.appdig.com

Use an Ocelot controller $150 and a SECU16IR input module $100 and the Ocelot plugin, (nearly finished!)

Then use individual IR triggers from each channel...



I looked at those but they don't have any multi-zone IR receiver devices that I could find. The SECU16IR is an output device.

That's generally the problem I've had with all the non-hyper-expensive Xantech-like solutions: they all assume one input, or they assume you're breaking out the Platinum card for multi-zone input. It strikes me as kind of silly for such comparatively simple signals and electronics. In some cases I'd spend as much for IR reception as it's costing me to do full 8x8 audio/video matrix switching.

[Ron]

I think part of the bottleneck is the comport communications. (Anchient technology compared to the CPU).

[Ron]

There is the USB-UIRT. Or are you fixed on the rs232?

[TooManyDevices]

I'm not tied to RS232, but would I be able to differentiate between multiple USB-UIRT devices?

[Ron]

I think Jon (the manufacterer) has some kind of way to do that. Anyone out there have experience with this?

[TooManyDevices]

I actually e-mailed Jon earlier today and he said multiple UIRTs could be connected. He asked if I needed to differentiate between them and I replied that I did, but I didn't get a reply, so I'm not sure whether that's possible.

[TooManyDevices]

Jon's response to the direct question about whether Girder can differentiate between multiple UIRTs:


Yes it is, but it is not completely straightforward in Girder. Currently, to use multiple USB-UIRT's on a single PC with Girder means that you must install multiple USB-UIRT Girder plugins -- a different plugin for each USB-UIRT. Girder can differentiate and can tell which USB-UIRT it is receiving a signal from.

At better than $50 each with shipping, I'm going to root around the 'net for a cheap RS232 solution a little longer (the new house still has another few months before construction is completed), but at least I have a fallback, it seems.

[Promixis]

I need to receive IR from 8 different locations, and need the ability to determine which location sent the signal. I am thinking about using low-cost solutions such as the LIRC-style RS232 receivers and emitters, along with a pair of 8-port serial cards. 8 RS232 ports would receive the signals, 2 more would send RS232 commands to matrix switching equipment, and the remaining 6 ports would drive LIRC IR emitters.

Can Girder handle this?

Sounds like a job for NetRemote :)

or different remotes in each zone?

[TooManyDevices]

Specifically:

Living Room: Philips Pronto Pro NG TSU-7000
Master Bedroom: Philips Pronto TSU-2000
Exercise Room: Philips Pronto TSU-2000
Guest Bedroom: OneForAll learning remote
Garage: OneForAll learning remote
Back Porch: OneForAll learning remote
Downstairs Office: OneForAll learning remote
Upstairs Office: OneForAll learning remote

There are two main reasons I'm dividing the IR into zones. If I could afford 8 Prontos (including being able to afford the risk of leaving one on the back porch, and using one in the garage) I might consider using customized IR code sequences, even though that strikes me as a lot of extra work (wait until you see the device list), but here are my reasons:

First, it makes it a little easier to provide one-touch source selection through the matrix router. I know the output based on the zone where the signal originates.

Second, most of the zones have IR-controlled equipment local to the zone (for example, amplifiers and televisions). I can ignore the local-equipment signals on a zone-by-zone basis. For example, the amplifier for the living room is actually in the AV closet, so it will be controlled through the IR distribution system. However, the amp in the master bedroom is exactly the same model, but is controlled locally.

The system will control DVD and MP3 playback on a PC, 8x8 composite/audio matrix switching, 4x4 audio-only matrix switching, 5x2 HDMI matrix switching, a Tivo, a VCR, an AM/FM tuner, a Xantech IR-controlled power strip, an Xbox360, a surveillance camera 4-way multiplexer and its DVR, and passive signal routing from an Xbox and a PS2 (gotta love wireless controllers). The Pronto remotes, at least, are also able to control the local IR devices in every zone (8 amplifiers, 6 TVs, 2 projectors). The AllForOne remotes are only able to control the devices in their "assigned" zones.

30 devices in all. It's probably apparent why I didn't want to drop another couple grand on a bunch of Xantech equipment. As it stands I think I can get away with $320 worth of IR recievers, $360 worth of USB-UIRTs, Girder, and about $35 worth of emitters.

I haven't investigated it yet, but I'm hoping Girder will allow me to issue commands across the network from other PCs, as this would be very handy from my and my wife's offices (we both work from home).

[Promixis]

perhaps with this setup then you can program different IR codes for each 'zone' and G4 will be able to recognize which zone the command came from based on the IR code. lotsa work but should be no problem ;)

[TooManyDevices]

Yeah, I've considered that, too. I really need to just buy Girder and play with it for awhile before I get into the house. If it's database capabilities are up to snuff, maybe I can do something that way to manage some of the complexities of that many custom IR signals.

I spent more than 20 years as a programmer, what's a few more to get the house up and running, right? :D

[Todd Reed]

Maybe you can keep the IR basic and cheap, and then add the WGL whole house RF X10 receiver for lighting and Girder commands.

http://www.wgldesigns.com/v572.html

Thus, IR can stay simple with a few basic IR receivers, maybe a zoned IR if required, and use X10 to trigger events in Girder, as well as local lighting control. I use this to trigger weather retrieval and stock market updates!

Then dedicate the IR input to Girder to control, for example, a Media Player.

With a couple of house codes, using on and off commands, you would get 32 event triggers.

Most of the All for One remotes send X10, so each zone could use a different house code, if desired.

For zones with IR only, how about a simple X10-IR receiver for each zone.

http://www.automatedoutlet.com/product.php?productid=41&cat=0&page=3

[TooManyDevices]

I appreciate the thought, but I've done X10 before and wasn't too impressed. I also doubt it will work well in this house given that I saw minor quirks in a "regular" house with X10. It's a very big house with a very complex electrical system -- I'm told I have four times the usual amount of high-volt wiring, on top of four times the usual amount of low-volt wiring. Two full-size breaker panels, power isolation and dedicated home-runs for the AV closet, and a 13kW 400amp generator. This is a little unfortunate -- I've dabbled in home automation before, and thought about messing with it again at the new place, but I suspect the electrical system will prevent proper X10 usage (which is kind of annoying since I still own a lot of X10 outlets and switches and doodads).

Plus my three Prontos represent a not insignificant investment and role in this setup, and they don't do RF.

I don't actually like the OneForAll remotes that much, but I'm starting to warm to the idea of doing custom IR sequences. The Pronto will make the sequences easy to build, then I can just learn them into the OneForAll using one of the Prontos. If I plan carefully, I'm starting to suspect I may be able to avoid a hardware solution to zone identification (and save a few hundred bucks in the process). I'm thinking maybe I'll precede each zoned IR signal with a unique zone code and try trapping that in Girder.

Then I just need to work out the emitter side, for which I'll probably go back to my original LIRC hardware plan (the LIRC guys make emitters as well as receivers) if I can't find something I can chain together off USB for a reasonable price. I'll still need at least six emitters.

[TooManyDevices]

Thought I'd post a quick follow-up, maybe it'll help somebody someday. Just as Ron suggested, I'm finding that LIRC-style receivers aren't up to the task, particularly when it comes to the longer, more complex signal strings I was contemplating to avoid the hardware zone-identification issue. I was questioning his assertion, but that was only because I didn't understand how IR signal timing works at the lowest level. Since a LIRC merely toggles a line on the serial port, that means the CPU interrupt must be repeatedly and reliably triggered (and serviced) with at least millisecond resolution, and preferably sub-millisecond resolution. PC hardware can do this all day in theory, but it was never intended to do this repeatedly with great accuracy in practice, and that's what accurate raw-IR reception demands.

After about two days of testing a wide variety of remotes and signal reception under varying CPU loads and other sub-optimal but real-world conditions, the margin of error was simply too great. On top of that, WinLIRC is pretty basic as automation tools go. I realized I was giving serious thought to writing a raw-IR stream converter, and suddenly a USB-UIRT made a lot of sense! :p

Now if it'll just get here before my Girder trial expires... :o