State of NetRemote

[Ben S]

Hi guys,

I'm starting to get a little stressed over NetRemote. I'm trying to get the technology working in such a way that users have complete control over how it looks (via Tonto), what it can control on the PC (via Girder) and what it can control in general (via drivers, etc.) Unfortunately this wide-open nature makes it hard for the average person to setup, understand, and run.

Unfortunately I don't have the graphics skills to make something that can "wow" the masses, and we don't have any specialized ccfs, say for controlling Media Center only that would be easy for a casual user to pick up and use and be wowed.

By making sure that every Pocket PC can run NetRemote (from MIPS to XScale, WinCE 3.0 to PPC2002), I need to stay with C++, which is harder to keep stable (versus C#, a Java like language which I've been working heavily in on another project). By trying to be abstract with "off the shelf components", NetRemote will never look as clean as Flash.

I feel a chance of losing ground to some of the other apps (some Flash based) coming out. For instance, a bunch of people seem to think XLobby (http://www.explode.ca/xlobby2/) is shaping up nicely, and Steven is working on a Pocket PC client (in C#) to talk to XLobby. Mario is adding MusicLobby (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?postid=2337860#post2337860) support to his *Lobby suite, and Dan has converted it to run on a PocketPC (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?s=&postid=2336870&fullpage=1).

There is no doubt that NetRemote has more power than the other solutions, because you really can control anything, but is power the answer? Unfortunately with great power brings great responsibility. The cost of entry to getting NetRemote working is too high for most people, because you need to be technical.

My question, and I'm looking for complete honesty here, is do you still see value in NetRemote?

For instance, Tor is one of the biggest supporters of NetRemote. But from what I've seen, if Dan can enable multizone in MusicLobby Pocket, I think that it might be a cleaner solution if you're only looking to control MediaCenter.

Other questions:

* Is there something that NetRemote does especially well that you think I/we should concentrate on?
* If 0.99 is mostly stable, would there be in interest in retooling in C# for better stability, and more future-proofedness? Even if this means it will be PPC2k2 or newer only?
* How important is being able to use CCFs? I'm afraid Stewart might be on to other projects, and we might not be able to get some of the custom things like font selection, alignment, etc. in Tonto. This might mean breaking away from Pronto and Tonto and having an editor be part of NetRemote. I'd like to stay being able to use TSU6000 and RC9200 ccfs, however. But this would probably be an import, because frankly I think using the 3 number (-1,0,0) is part of the burden of understanding with NetRemote. Even if the NetRemote editor still stores -1,0,0, but maps that to "Girder Command Execute" in the editor.
* A better/more stable solution would be having all communication going through one connection, to a NetRemote server. The NetRemote server would then broker to Girder, Media Center, etc. This would make installation and configuration -much- easier. This is something I could do without significant retooling.

I don't mean to be a downer, but NetRemote currently meets my needs, and if it looks like some of the other solutions coming down the pike might interest people more, I might move on to another project. I'm not really one to do a "me-too" type project, even if I was one of the originals. I don't need NetRemote to be a success, I just need people that are excited about it so that I stay excited about it. I don't want to be constantly playing catch-up against other solutions.

Damn rain. Always gets me down.

[Ben S]

Sorry: Note that a possible retool of the client would not impact the lua communication code that Gavin has worked on, and would not negatively impact the ability to control MediaCenter.

[Eiffel]

Ben,

I think that NetRemote is shaping up to be a great product. I have been busy with other projects and haven't invested as much time in it as I would have liked, but can't think of a good substitute.

The flexibility and power of your system, and the fact that features have been changing up until very recently (feedback, mouse) probably means that you probably need to give users a little bit more time to get used to it, and to come up with really cool CCFs/GMLs that can be shared (Note that MC9 is also in a state of flux, and that each release looks and feels quite different!). Once the basic system is stable, it's us, the users, who should develop AND share nice 'skins' (CCFs/GMLs).

Regarding your specific questions
. CCF compatibility is a must for me, and I'm longing for IR passthrough with the UIRT2 (I may upgrade to the USB-UIRT just to get this feature to work)
. Stability is very important (and, form my limited testing, is not 100% there yet). Would moving to C## improve it? If not, don't bother for now. The change to the Remoteserver look interesting... if stability improves, I'd be interested.

One issue with a project like yours is that there are so many additional features that can be added (and users like me will ask for them ;) ). At some point in time you have to call it quits, freeze the feature set, and mostly do bug releases (that is unless you want to start working on NR2.0 in C##)

Thanks for a great tool

[Promixis]

Ben, NR is really a great program. I do see what you are saying about other projects out there and the technical skills required to use NR which may make you wonder if its worth it.

Some of my thoughts...

CCFs - I don't really mind as I have put the time into learning them. BUT, it really is a painful process. I can't image how many pronto's are in a box when the average Joe went out and bought one. It takes a whole weekend just to get going with it! Setting up commands to work with NR is somewhat difficult - but it works so I would leave it for now.

C# or C++ - I have PPC2k so I don't mind :)

I do like the idea of a NR server. I am sure that would make the setup process much easier.

To me, the core features are Girder and MC9. NR is what made me buy MC9! I haven't used the IR passthrough but might in the future.

Don't get depressed! :lol: Being on the bleeding edge is fun!

[mrallen]

Two things are holding me up right now: a) my iPaq died completely and b) I'm in the middle of a house move. Once this settles out I can think about toys again.

I like NetRemote a lot. I would rather use NetRemote on an iPaq than any Pronto. But you are correct that it requires far too much expertise for the average user. These are not killer problems. They are opportunities to make it even better.

Tonto is nearing the end of it's development cycle as a Pronto/Marantz development platform. If I do anything else in this area, it will be focused exclusively for a product like NetRemote. I no longer have any real use for closed/limited platforms like the Pronto.

[purplemotion]

I have great plans that involve netremote but I havn't gotten very far. I have been fiddling around with writing a server side java application to talk to netremote. It has been hard since things change fairly often (i.e I haven't even looked into what is involved to mimic the new media center stuff). Anyway
a) I like the CCF format.
b) I like netremote because it makes desiging a GUI fairly easy even though there are limitations in what can be done. I want a PPC app that can show all kinds of stuff for home automation and I don't want to have to write it in C++ or even C# . I think netremote fits here perfectly (especially with the feedback!)
c) I *really* like the idea of a standard netremote server because this would make things easier for me :D . If you could make the server work on many platforms (i.e. Linux) all the better (this is probably hard since there is no media center for linux). Worst case, just so long as the network protocol is documented (or easily reverse-engineered) it is cool with me!
d) stability is the most important thing for me.

Thanks!

[Mastiff]

Ben, first of all: I won't change to anything else, it's as likely as a move from MC to Winamp or Music Match or a move from ZoomPlayer to PowerDVD for me! In other words not happening. Why? First of all because NetRemote does all that I want it to do, wich the other programs don't. It controls my HT and lights in it, MC is of course the biggest thing for me, but I still need the other things. Second of all because I have invested time in NR, and to me time really is money as a self-employed dude. And third of all because you have done so many things for me that I would feel like a rat if I sold you out! :wink:

As for your questions I always feel dumb when trying to think big. I'm more like a "deal with the problems in front of me" guy. Which you've probably seen since I usually deal with my problems in the shape of a little message asking you to tweak or add functionality! :D But still, here goes:

1. The versatility would be it for me. That I can control anything on a commputer, and via the combination Girder/UIRT2 I can control other non computer equipment ... as soon as I get my UIRT2 that I have bought from a fellow forum member. I have given up on my brother...

2. Yes, C# sounds like a good idea! Since PPC2002 units are soon to be "obsolete" with PPC2003 coming out one of there days (the 23rd?) you should be able to get very reasonably priced used units in a few months.

3. CCFs or not really does not bother me, it took me all of ten minutes to get a basic grip on Tonto so I haven't really invested that much time in the process. Of course I would like to bring my CCF with me. Still with what Stewart (of Tonto fame) has written in this thread I would say that the combination NR/Tonto probably still will be the best bet.

4. My god, yes! Let it all go through one connection! Especially if this means that a change of host will bring Girder with it. In other words, I control both Girder, MC and all other stuff on the HTPC when I choose that as a host and the same stuff on the Internet/Media server when I choose that as a host. Very nice! If possible we should be able to run it as a service on 2K/XP systems.

As for the steep learning curve I agree that it can be eased a lot, think about this scenario:

The totally ignorant first time user downloads NetRemote and Girdersetup.exe. When he runs the NetRemote setup he can choose between several different CCFs as the standard CCF based on what they have. "OK, I have MC9, Girder and ZoomPlayer, so I choose the CCF with control panels for MC9 and ZoomPlayer." When that is done he fires up Girdersetup.exe on the computers he's got, and that will configure the plug-ins needed and import the GML and LUA stuff that he needs to use feedback and all the other fun stuff. In ten minutes he can be up and running, and if he wants to he can zoom through the user's guide that NetRemote has a link to on the front page. This button fires up IE (or PocketIE) with the correct version of the guide.

With this the learning curve is suddenly no problem at all. Does this sound possible? Or even logical? 8)

[Aaron]

OK, I'll chime in...

My take is that I want something simple! NetRemote is.
I can use premade CCFs or make my own (this can be a lot of work but is far from complicated!) and I do not need to teach Girder each command. I like this... this is not available in ANY other app as far as I know.

I'm getting my USB-UIRT this week and will be using it with NetRemote exclusively. I want it to control my Home Theater and it will. The other apps are nice but they lack the features Netremote is best at... CCFs integration and WinCe 2.12 support!

If you were to change anything (you really don't need to!) I'd think that maybe you could get with the other app gurus and come up with a communication protocol so all the apps can talk to each other: status, commands, feedback, etc.

Otherwise, unless the other apps support WinCE 2.12 and can natively use USB-UIRT and CCFs... they can have thier place in other homes, not mine.

We love you Ben!!!

[jeroen020]

Hi Ben,

I haven't been posting for some time, but that doesn't mean Netremote is no longer important to me - on the contrary, I'm rethinking the control part of my HT to suit the Netremote/Girder potential even better and my girlfriend and me still use it every day. Since I first started looking into Netremote last Summer, it has had the following impact on me:
- I now have a total of 4 Ipaqs connected to my LAN for control throughout the house (one year ago that was one)
- I spent a lot of time with Girder, configuring about a dozen devices and getting feedback up and running
- I added X10 support to Girder to be able to control lights, device power etc from Netremote
- I bought a UIRT2 and now a USB-UIRT
- I have learned to use Prontoedit and later Tonto
- When I selected a new DVD player, I chose the Denon 2900 partly because it has a serial port - perfect for DVD player feedback with Girder and Netremote!
- I'm currently adding a lower spec HT to my bedroom, which will be automated by... Girder and Netremote!
- I'm looking into Smart Display, oversized PocketPC (800x600 resolution) or even a TabletPC to be able to build even fancier interfaces

So all in all, I have spent dozens of hours and considerable funds on this ever expanding hobby, inspired primarily by Netremote - so many kudos to you!

Looking at the issues you raise, I can comment the following. First of all, the main attraction of this concept is, has been been and will always be feedback - fullblown, instant, two-way communcation. That's what all other solutions lack. or don't fully support. I think sticking to Girder is an excellent idea - Girder has proven to be robust, flexible and has an active community of users and developers. To be honest, I haven't looked into the newest RC's of NR, but as soon as I can free up a weekend (preferably a rainy one), I'll dive in and get up to speed there. Having a remote that allows me to check the active chapter and remaining playtime on my DVD, while reviewing individual speaker volume settings for surround sound and monitoring which lights in the house are on is just the basis of what's yet to come. So, feedback is king and I hope it will stay high on your agenda and continue to be refined, as you suggested in your last point.

So what could be improved? Although I understand clearly why you picked CCF initially and how it has helped adoption of Netremote of HT early adopter, I don't really feel it's that great of a standard.

The editors are decent, but not very user friendly and they contain a lot of stuff that's not relevant to Netremote users - and they're certainly not easy to learn, with the 3 number parameters you mentioned etc. A more streamlined, Netremote-optimised version of Tonto with feedback features could do wonders, and perhaps still be compatible for people who invested in CCF's already or that want to use IR passthru. Flash might be an alternative for this if we can find the proper developers and edit tools for this, or perhaps even (X)HTML/stylesheets/JavaScript, but if not, stick to what you've been doing before.

Girder is powerful and flexible, but it could benefit from more readily available GML files and device parameters that are available and tailored for Netremote use, making it easier for new users to get started.

So, I'm really looking forward to getting even more feedback features up and running in my Netremote project soon; so are the half dozen people I have introduced to Netremote here in The Netherlands. If it's any comfort to you, I would be more than willing to help with any of the following:
- sharing my CCF, GML and other relevant files
- donate to you to help you acquire development tools and platforms or to just reward you for your incredible efforts
- introduce you to some of my contacts in the HT and IT world, especially here in Europe

To me, Netremote together with Girder offers Crestron-style control over your gear, at a substantially lower pricepoint and based on standards that are more open and flexible. Perhaps a good next step would therefore be to join forces in approaching HT installers and similar people, to convince them to give Netremote a try. It'll then show up in magazines, people will start hearing about it outside of the hardcore HT enthusiasts that crowd avsforum.com and other places. If I would be in the HT business myself, I would even consider building a dedicated box, that's pretty much Plug'n'play to people and based on Girder, an MP3 player etc and that comes with UIRT and a WiFi PocketPC with default, customizable Netremote software. There are companies marketing stand-alone, PC based MP3 players, DVD-players, video scalers, PVR's etc - why not a home control box too?

In the mean while, stay true to your roots and continue to do what you do best: taking your users seriously and helping them with great software!

Thanks,

Jeroen

[brockgr]

Ben

Did you expect htis much feedback :shock:? I think that is an etremely positive sign. I must admit I have been so wrapped up in NR that I have been ignoring the competition.

I'm not answeing your questions, but why I like NetRemote over other products:

* It's incredibly versatile. It's like 'lego'. It can do anything now (not always elegantly), but if you can imagine it, it is possible.

* CCF (and Tonto) are great. Stewart is a great ally to have :wink:. There may be better file formats out there, but so far CCF (and Tonto's extensions) have proved very flexible. This in additon to an easy migration from the Pronto (which you may be guilty of killing :-)).

* NR is not a closed evironment - it's almost a container. You can embed web pages, you can call other programs on the PPC. Maybe MusicLobby could be a sub part of NR (by calling it from NR). I doubt you could do the reverse.

* NR is free - some of these competing products are pretty costy these days. You have given me NetRemote - that makes me want to give something back to the community too.

NetRemote is not easy. But nor is Girder. And building good 'lego' models is hard too. If we can have 'Easy NetRemote' that is great, but this is the Swiss Army Chainsaw (to steal a Perl reference) of remote controls. It's biggest selling point is it's power and flexability.

Maybe we should see how Girder keeps getting users - although it installation is fairly simple, but the plugins can be hard, and most users can't program it. The few 'power users' keep feeding the beginners.

Cheers, Gavin

[ebariaux]

Just want to also say yes, there is stil huge value in netremote.
I haven't looked at the other apps you mentioned but from what I "know/think" about them, it does not offer the same power as netremote.

As for the more technical aspects, I would favor C# just because I believe it can bring in more "plug-in" developers.
I also like the idea of a central server on the HTPC. As someone suggested, if it could be written in java, we could have some portability and it might be a good thing.

As for the idea that someone proposed of doing a control box sold by HT vendors, I really like it but I think there's still a long way to go.
I'm starting a custom installer/HT vendor activity but I can hardly imagine giving a customer a box with all the software installed and he/she need to configure it. It's just too complex (or at least too much work) for an average user. And I think there is too much diversity in the different possible configurations to be able to come up with one out of the box solution.

This said, I'm still sometimes thinking about this idea and I would love to see as many netremote users as there are pronto ones.

So, many many thanks for what you're doing and please keep on providing us great software.

Eric.

[xuniman]

My two cents - After I found Netremote I changed my entire HT to better accomadate it. I really haven't had any significant problems getting it running, a few teething pains as I first started but most of those were solved by the FAQ/user manual that went up a few months ago (sorry I forgot who it was that created the web manual). I will never willingly change to another front end. Netremote does everything I need and does it well. The feedback adds amazing capabilities for what I am trying to do (to make this a simple interface for my family to use).

I now have my entire system controlled by Netremote/Girder/USB-UIRT. I am still working on the graphics for Netremote and that is my biggest hurdle. The system is so flexible and powerful that I have had trouble settling on a screen layout that would please me. The combo of Tonto and Netremote allows me to get away from the Pronto restrictions which of course means I have to come up with my own look. So much fun to be had!

As far as your questions:

I like the CCF format due to the large base of graphics already developed for the pronto. Other than that I think it is a confusing mess when trying to set up a PPC for Netremote. To get all the hard buttons to map properly in a CCF is not intuitive (I'm not sure I'm doing it the easiest way but it works). The three number thing is definately a conceptual roadblock for non-techies. Although Tonto adds a lot of capability it's backward compatibility to pronto is not needed for what I am doing and just makes the interface harder to learn. All in all I would say a custom editor that did imports of CCF's would be ideal.

C# - I don't mind either way as I have a PPC 2002 but stability is #1 on my wish list for Netremote. There is nothing I dislike more than having just gotten the wife to start using the system only to have Netremote crash on her while I am away. Talk about reluctance to ever use it again!

A server with one connection (running as a NT service?) would be great! As long as Girder and MC9 are still supported I think this is the way to go.

I would also be willing to donate to this development effort. I want to support things that make my life easier or more enjoyable and Netremote has certainly done both.

All in all I want to thank you and encourage you to keep up the great work. There are lots of us enjoying this and I think once it is fully stable our small group can help you out with custom CCFs and tutorials about how we are all setting our systems up. If you had a few of these in a step by step style I think it would go a long way in killing the learning curve bugaboo.

Thanks again,
Kevin

[Mastiff]

C# - I don't mind either way as I have a PPC 2002 but stability is #1 on my wish list for Netremote. There is nothing I dislike more than having just gotten the wife to start using the system only to have Netremote crash on her while I am away. Talk about reluctance to ever use it again!

Kevin (nice name, my son's called that!), I'm glad I'm not the only one struggling with a wife like that! I think I'll show her this post! Nothing has slowed down the walk from CDs to fully PC controlled multi-zone sound like the occational problems that seems to always happen when I'm away or at work! :wink:

[smellywookie]

There is no subsitute for Netremote. I am controlling my whole house with a very detailed, very complext ccf. It is the entire front end for my Homevision based home automation system. Here is a list of just a few things that I am controlling through Netremote, Girder and Homevision.

- Lighting
- Furnace / Air Conditioner
- All Lighting
- Security Cameras through embedded browser
- Whole house audio
- Irrigation System
- Security System
- Weather Station
- DirectTV
- TV's in all rooms
- TiVo
- DVD Players

I can upload my ccf if anyone is interested in looking at it.

I have experimented with many different user interfaces for my system with the last one being a Pronto. There is nothing on the market that compares to the Netremote/Girder combination. I am even contemplated starting a home automation company with Netremote as one of the key components.

Do not give up hope Ben. Netremote can not be all things to all people. You have done a great job meeting all the main stream needs.

[maxtrash]

I guess we all agree here that Netremote is the best thing since sliced bread :wink: so don't get down!

as for the complexity: I agree that this is an issue. You already point out a possible solution. There's should be ready-to-be-used CCF's.

I see Netremote as a combination of a number of things, like mp3 playing (1), video playing (2) and remote control of just about anything (3). If solutions like Xlobby etc. are dedicated to (1) and (2) it should be easy to use, Yes. But with the premade CCF's that work with media center (1), Gavin's LUADVD (2) and some good install scripts Netremote should come very close in user-friendliness. Function (3) is by it's nature more complex, but that's because anyone will have a different setup and will want to control different things. This is not your problem. The pronto has the same problem I guess and enough people are able to overcome this?

As for the server-issue. I feel like there already is a server, it's called Girder :-) And it's an extremely flexible one with the LUA programming embedded. But apart from that it's a design issue, just as the C# question. If you feel this would be better: go for it. From a user standpoint it should be a black box issue.

As for the dedicated editor: you should pay attention to the 'scope-creep'-problem. Your time's obviously limited, so I wouldn't want it wasted on functionality that already exists. Even if the end result could be easier than what we have now.

That's it for now. Keep up the good work!

[Mastiff]

Smelly, promise to mention us, your friends, when Audio Video Interiors make the front page headliner on your house! :wink:

Oh, and I need to adjust one bit of my suggestion: The Girder setup part should of course be a part of the NetRemote server, so the GMLs are imported. It could really import GMLs for everything, so if the user decides to move from TheaterTek to ZoomPlayer (as any zane person would...) he can still use the same Girder setup, only he'll change to the MC-TT-whatever CCF. And all CCFs should be copied to the PPC since they really don't take that much space, and they should have descriptive names. And all DVD player CCFs should look the same, the difference should be in the codes that are being sendt to the correct group in the GML.

So, Ben, is this unisone acclamation going to affect your ego? :lol:

[slickrock22]

I haven't posted much, but I totally understand where you are coming from. I have a business with my father and we are constantly innovating in the market research field. Others are also constantly innovating. The big difference is that we have 8 people at our company, while the competition has hundreds. What differentiates our products and services. EASE OF USE AND RELAIBILTY. Somebody will always have a better product. PERIOD. If I let myself get down everytime I read the news release of a competitor product I wouldn't be in business any more.

This product kicks ass! All those that see the setup are blown away. So thank you.

P.S. I uninstalled Xlobby after 5 minutes!

[Wizard Sleeve]

I havent posed much here either but i would just like to congratulate you on a system that i have been dreaming about for ages. When i started this all i had was a pronto. i dont even remember how i found out about netremote because i had no past experience in htpc letalone know what it meant. since then i have taught myself girder, i have baught myself an hp5450 (BTW its only used for this), a new pc especially for running all those luvley programmes like zoom player. and have sunk hundreds of hours in to configuring my ccfs and gmls.

The only thing i need now is for the core of the program to settle down so i can get some serious designing done.

Excellent work

The sleeve of a wizard

[Ben S]

Wow. Looks like we're all on the same page. Great!

I hope my post didn't come off as whiny, because I really didn't mean it to. I would never be "hurt" if one of my pet projects didn't go far, because they really are "pet" projects. I just wanted to make sure that there were other people as jazzed about NetRemote as I am, and that I was right in continuing the effort to the best of my/our abilities.

Seeing a bunch of you guys talking about what you've been able to accomplish really gets me psyched!

Thanks for all the responses, folks. I greatly value your feedback.

[brockgr]

I'm amazed so many people are up and running already. Can we get as many working CCF combinatios uploaded, regardless of asthetic quality. I think if new users saw that many people have working combo's and there is lots of example CCF/GML's to steal - they would be less scared.

Maybe we need to spread out the download section more? Softwere/Add-ons/User Contributed setups?

[John Pimentel]

Hi Ben,

I just wanted to offer my words of encouragement. We all have been blessed with differing gifts. You may not be able to create whiz bang graphics, but from what I can see you are one awesome code pounder. Me I'm a Systems Engineer, and I can't write code, (unless I'm really desperate) or do graphics (also unless I'm really desperate). Those things just don't come easy to me.
Net Remote from the little I have seen, seems very powerful and it is my observation that none of the other MC player interfaces (Glissando etc.) would exist if it were not for the excellent work you have done and continue to do on Media Center's webremote / remote server plug in.

Some recommendations moving forward:
You should continue to focus on the backend pieces that you do so well. This effort could be used to make the graphical part of the equation easier to manage for end users.
For example, if we could get some graphics people to donate some cool button art, and backgrounds to match, and compile those in a library that grows and can be downloaded at will, then it may be easier for people to generate their own ccfs. (I know I am stating the obvious, but bare with me).
The concept of NetRemote using existing editors like pronto edit and tonto to create ccfs is good, but perhaps having a NetRemote editor that you can control might make things easier, perhaps not.

The bottom line is that for broader appeal, NetRemote should ship with at least 1 cool looking default skin/ccf. We should all get together to try and make that happen.

Stability is of course crucial, and for me would outweigh compatibility with other platforms. So any changes in that direction would be positive.
Keep up the excellent work and let me know how I can help.

[sapnho]

I can only chime in the applause for NetRemote!

I have put together a small website (www.audio-jukebox.com) helping people to build an audio jukebox and Ben mailed me a few days ago, suggesting that I took a look at NetRemote. On my page you will there is praise for Pronto all over, but I guess I will have to rewrite history once I have completed my changeover to NetRemote.

Pronto is a great system and NetRemote takes it one step further eliminating all the problems with IR but maintaining the ease of use of the Pronto. This is why I believe CCF compatibility is key to the success of NetRemote because it provides access to the installed Pronto user base. No serious man would ever buy an iPronto, I believe! (No offense to anybody who has bought one :wink: )

Ben, please keep up the great work and once I have a working system with NetRemote, I will certainly change my website... :lol:

[Mastiff]

Have you seen my homepage, with my media jukebox setup? I use NR plus IR remotes, but I don't like the Pronto, I prefer buttons on my remotes when using regular one way remote. Bidirectional control like NR is something else, though.

[sapnho]

Wow! Are your NR ccf files downloadable from somewhere?

[Mastiff]

They're with partly norwegian button names, but you'll find them on the user upload part of this board. 8)

[brohebus]

Ben,

This is my first post in a long time. I've been off busy getting married, working on a startup and a few other projects that have made it tough for me to keep up with NetRemote. The good news is that my old config running on .97 is still working great! Some comments below:




I'm trying to get the technology working in such a way that users have complete control over how it looks (via Tonto), what it can control on the PC (via Girder) and what it can control in general (via drivers, etc.) Unfortunately this wide-open nature makes it hard for the average person to setup, understand, and run.

This power is what makes NetRemote so good. Other solutions railroad you into their method of doing things and generally have less flexibility. Granted, each tool (Tonto, Girder etc) has it's own learning curve, but the fact of the matter is that if you are looking at something like NetRemote you are looking for a custom solution, not something out-of-the-box, and have to accept the higher level of difficulty that is attendant to creating something unique. Based on what is out there for true automation, Netremote isn't that any more difficult to use than other soltuions.



Unfortunately I don't have the graphics skills to make something that can "wow" the masses, and we don't have any specialized ccfs, say for controlling Media Center only that would be easy for a casual user to pick up and use and be wowed.

Echoing my earlier point, everyone's setup is going to be unique. I use Zoomplayer, MusicMatch, DVDDecryptor and a handfull of helper apps on my HTPC, plus all my AV hardware. While having premade CCF for certain components, e.g. MediaPlayer, the problem I ran into with Pronto CCFs is that the style's never matched etc. That being said, I'm working on a new CCF and will be more than happy to pour it back into the NetRemote community...I'll leave it up to others to decide if it is 'wow' enough.


By trying to be abstract with "off the shelf components", NetRemote will never look as clean as Flash.

I'll agree that this is true, but designing in Flash introduces it's own set of difficulties and learning curve too.


* If 0.99 is mostly stable, would there be in interest in retooling in C# for better stability, and more future-proofedness? Even if this means it will be PPC2k2 or newer only?

I'm on PPC2002, so I'd say yes :P . Then again, I don't know how many users are on 'legacy' WinCE'


* How important is being able to use CCFs? I'm afraid Stewart might be on to other projects, and we might not be able to get some of the custom things like font selection, alignment, etc. in Tonto. This might mean breaking away from Pronto and Tonto and having an editor be part of NetRemote. I'd like to stay being able to use TSU6000 and RC9200 ccfs, however. But this would probably be an import, because frankly I think using the 3 number (-1,0,0) is part of the burden of understanding with NetRemote. Even if the NetRemote editor still stores -1,0,0, but maps that to "Girder Command Execute" in the editor.

CCF are nice in the fact that we get a lot of extra stuff from the Pronto community, plus the fact that we have ready-made editors, and even a custom editor in Tonto. There are some quibbles with how NetRemote uses the Pronto format (the codes), but it is better than before when you had to create a separate hex value for every event.


* A better/more stable solution would be having all communication going through one connection, to a NetRemote server. The NetRemote server would then broker to Girder, Media Center, etc.

This sounds interesting.


I don't mean to be a downer, but NetRemote currently meets my needs, and if it looks like some of the other solutions coming down the pike might interest people more, I might move on to another project.

It sounds like you are getting the developer fatigue that sets in after working on a project for too long. NetRemote has come a long way since I started using it, so the work is greatly appretiated. I use it everyday...I can't realy think of a more telling testimonial to how useful it really is. In the end, you'll have to decide what it is worth to you, but considering the number of folks on this board, I think we're rooting for you.

-Dave

[dkan24]

It's amazing how many people here have bought new hardware just because of NR. I am going to buy the new Axim with wi-fi built in, once it comes out, just to make my remote look better!

If only hardware companies like Gateway understood this, all would be well in the PC/ Consumer Electronics world. Give us a "killer app" that is open, and customizable, and we will all buy new stuff. Gateway just announced a connected DVD player that will stream mp3s and pics. Talk about a "me-too" product. I know I am ranting now but it just amazes me how out of touch these companies are.

Anyhow, NR obviously kicks ass and has given us all a colorful, bi-directional remote that can do everything for very cheap. Great work Ben!

[JcMarin]

Ben:

I’m fairly new to this forum and NetRemote, but I’m already hooked! (in fact spending to much time on it :shock: )

I Think NetRemote is just great and the best there is out there for HTPC Control, and the FeedBack features and flexibility on the Applications it can controls is what makes it a BIG difference for me.

Although most of what I think has already been expressed by others here (and better then me) Here are my two cents on the subject of where to go next:

• NetRemote Server would definitely make it more easy to setup for new users, It would also allow for better support of feedback back to the client and Feedback is what makes this application great.
• I think NetRemote – Girder combination is the best option and should be the focus of control/feedack
• CCF I don’t really care for, but looks like its important to some here, so I would at least add import capabilities to whatever comes next, and what I think a Tonto specific version for NetRemote would be a very good solution (and contribution from people like Stewart will let you concentrate on other aspects of NetRemote)
• Going to PPC 2002/2003 if it adds stability or features I would definitely recommend, Win CE users can always use .99 until they change to PPC

What I thin should be the priority in all of this would be to make the FeedBack more robust and flexible, and the NR Server would help with that and ease of use.

On the Client side adding again feedback features like more type of fields (like Dir. Tree) and these additions plus ease of use on the Design in Tonto-NR will contribute to the same goal.

Let me just say, I think your work is great and as you can see Highly Appreciated, and we are all eager to contribute (be it by creating CCF, GML, Testing betas or donating t/$) so make use of that resource…

Btw.
Have you considered making the project partially open source or at least opening API’s to Developers?

[Ben S]

I have considered going opensource, but am unsure as to the direction I want to take NetRemote mid-long term. There are certainly pieces that can be opensourced.

I have made the API available to developers, but only one person has tried doing any development right now. I don't know if that's because right now it's a C++ only SDK, or if there just aren't things needed right now.

A NetRemote plugin to talk to HomeSeer (through SeerCmd) would be a great project for someone with some C/C++ skills that owns HomeSeer, for instance.

[z.mash]

NetRemote is the reason I put together a HTPC. I haven't touched NR in a while because I recently moved and my projector is still sitting in a box. However, I won't use anything else. It's the only solution that does everything it does, and does it on Win32 or WinCE.

The fact that it is free is incidental. Not that you are about money (because you have repeatedly turned down donations), but I would donate the amount I spent on other Flash "solutions" in a heartbeat.

-Zak

[kennybroh]

I would happily pay something too....

Kenny Frank