Best 10" wireless device for Netremote?

[jeroen020]

Although I love using Netremote on my PDA's throughout the house, I can't help but be attracted to the larger web-pads, wireless displays etc that are out there.

Now that Ben has received a Fujitsu Point 1600, I was hoping to get some feedback on what people consider to be a good device with a ~10" screen. I think this size is optimal: 800x600 resolution gives you a lot of screen real estate, but it's still compact enough to not feel like handling a full blown laptop. If you look at high-end installations, 10" screens are the norm in many a Crestron or AMX setup.

Let's start the list:

Viewsonic Smart Display v110: this is a new device, a portable monitor/touchscreen that lets you control your desktop through WiFi. There are other manufacturers too, but they seem to focus on the 15" footprint. (I understood a Korean manufacturer is making a 800x600 8" version, now that would be cool - but it's only intended for their domestic market).
Pro's: light weight, instant on, easy management, WiFi integrated
Cons: expensive, only one Smart Display per desktop

Viewsonic Airpanel 100: pretty much a PPC with larger screen. Anybody using this?
Pro's: light weight, instant on, similar architecture to PPC (so familiar for Netremote)
Cons: WiFi optional

Fujitsu Point 1600: Ben can hopefully expand on this:
Pro's: cheap, PC flexibility
Cons: long boot, outdated OS, network/drivers may be tricky to install

Any thoughts?

[maxtrash]

I started some google-actions myself. It's quite hard to find this stuff.

This looks nice:

Advance ZX1000
http://www.laptops.nl/frames/frame-tablet.htm
the deonet ezbook seems to be the same thing.

I wonder what OEM-model it is


Other solution might be a POS-screen, but I'm not sure that they're very easy to get second hand

edit: http://www.vibrantdirect.co.uk/
and http://www.fic.com.tw/product/mobile/
also seem interesting. But how to get your hands on one of those I don't know

[Ben S]

I can provide some info on the Point 1600.

It does take an abnormally long time to boot up, and it's only Windows 98. However it is plenty fast to run NetRemote and yet pretty inexpensive (150-200 USD on ebay). The one I have is always on in the kitchen, so the boot time issue is mitigated.

I think no matter what the tablet I would tend to always leave it plugged in. This provides instant access without battery drain.

[Mastiff]

So when you send it to me I need to use a 220 to 110 Volt converter... :wink:

[jeroen020]

The Advance ZX1000/Deonet Ezbook looks similar in design to the other oversized CE PDA's, its price and size sits somewhere in the middle of a standard PPC and a Smart Display, and I love a 800x600 screen in that form factor... But they don't seem to very popular, so I'm worried about support and compatibility issues... Any idea who the OEM is? Is this available in the US under another name?

And about the point 1600: at that price you can forgive its boot time. But another question comes to mind: is it quiet? Any fan, hard drive noise? If it's silent, I don't mind leaving it on at all time, that would be a pro for the 1600 (I know all CE based devices are silent,). But if it's wired all the time, why not just get a touchscreen LCD monitor?

[Ben S]

It seems really, really quiet to me. I don't think it's accessing the hard drive once NetRemote is running. I don't notice it, especially in the kitchen. Once I get one to put in the theater, that may be different, however.

I'd also like to get one of the oversizes Win CE devices, as right now WinCE devices should only support 240x320 based on the code I've written.

[soren]

This looks very promising:

http://www.my-siemens.com/MySiemens/CDA/Index/0,2730,HQ_en_0_product%253AHO%252FNW%252FWPD%252FS IMPADCENET%252Fdesc,FF.html

Cheaper than a PDA as well!

/Sören

[jeroen020]

Thanks for the tip, Sören! They're going at around 250 Euro at eBay, so that's a great price indeed!

Ben, this is the Handheld PC CE 3.0 standard, and I also saw a version that runs Windows CE.Net V4. - would it be a lot of work to be able to run fullscreen CCF's in Netremote on a 800x600 device like this? Is CE 3.0 or 4.0 the better choice from a Netremote point of view?

[jeroen020]

I've been looking in further detail at the Siemens Simpad and I'm very enthusiastic about it. I can get it new in a shop locally at just over 300 Euro, similar to eBay pricing but then I'd have to get it from Germany.

I found out that the Simpad has quite an active community of users in Germany (you can even get Linux for it) and that it's actually possible to upgrade this H/PC device with CE 3.0 to CE.Net, and with some tweaks it's possible to run PPC as well (but that's not an elegant solution, that doesn't work for all software). As soon as I learn a way to run Netremote on it, I'm sold...

[Ben S]

Jeroen020, I'll keep an eye out for a device like these on Ebay. I know Aaron and another person were trying to get epods support, which is a 640x480 Windows CE machine. Unfortunately it was 2.12 so I don't think I can get support for it, but CE 3.0 or newer I should be able to support.

CE.Net will still run CE 3.0 apps, right? If so you should be okay, except for the fact that I hard code the size to 240x320 if it's a Windows CE device. I should be able to remove this constraint and you should be all set.

[z.mash]

Hey folks,

Here is a thread I started a while back that looked at the then-available options:

http://www.netremote.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=137&highlight=

I did not look into CE-based devices, though.

-Zak

[jeroen020]

Well, I just went ahead and got me a Siemens SIMpad SL5 at eBay yesterday, with matching Siemens WiFi card. I bought it of a German fellow, there seem to plenty of SL5's available there, but most of them will not be shipped outside of Germany, but if you ask you may be lucky.

Ben, I'll try it out and see what comes up with Netremote; when I feel confident it's a good match, I'll see if I can help you set up with one too! I may even consider getting more than one device, as I would like to mount them in walls in different places...

Zak, thanks for the list, that thread eluded me before! I was also considering a Fujitsu Stylistic LT C-500 I noticed at an auction this week. That one attracted me because of the hardware buttons too, but it was more than twice as expensive as the SIMpad. I was thinking of using girder on the tablet itself to 'catch' the hardware buttons, so you could use them to control things.

Anyway, options a plenty. Now lets hope I picked the right one!

[sapnho]

Does anybody know if the T Sinus Pad would work with Net Remote? It seems to be similar to the Siemens model.

[soren]

SL5?

I could only find a SL4 on Siemens homepage.
I'm really looking forward to your reports!

/Sören

[jeroen020]

Sören, you got me there - it's the SL4, so no revolutionary new model I'm afraid... The shop in Holland ran out, so that's why I had to get it at eBay in Germany. I spend a couple of hours tonight designing a 800 x 600 template in Tonto. Boy, is it great to have that much Netremote real estate! Can't wait to get it up and running!

Saphno, I've come to understand that the T Sinus Pad is indeed very similar to the Simpad. I've read somewhere that it has limited memory however, which may make it difficult to upgrade to CE.net, but the previous version of CE will hopefully work too. I can point you to some forums about the SL4 and Sinus Pad, but they're all in german I'm afraid!

I'll keep you all posted on the progress!

[Aaron]

how muc did the Siemens SIMpad cost?

[sapnho]

I can point you to some forums about the SL4 and Sinus Pad, but they're all in german I'm afraid!

No problem, I read some Goethe... :D

[jeroen020]

I paid about 330 Euro for the SL4, including the wireless LAN card.

The URL for the forum is http://palmtopmagazin.de/board/tablett/
If Goethe is your standard, it may be trivial stuff though.

[sapnho]

Just bought the Siemens SL4 for €200 brand-new! Now all I need is a wireless LAN card.

Jeroen020 can you recommend a card which works with this pad?

[Mastiff]

sapnho, you wanna tell me where you got that so cheap? It would even be interesting to me if you get the thing working smoothly with NR and all.

[Aaron]

Do you think you can get an email address of some one that can sell us in the US some SL4s?

I'd be interested in buying one or two but I have no way of getting one.

[jeroen020]

200 Euro! Wow, I want 4 at that price, as soon as I make sure they work with Netremote... I agree with Mastiff, care to share your source?

As far as PCMCIA WiFi cards for the SL4 go: the Siemens I-gate is your safest bet, as it is an official Siemens peripheral for this device. But drivers for more WiFi cards are included with the device, but I don't know which ones. I guess most cards that support other flavors of CE should be fine, and if you stick to better known brands, especially if it is a model that has been around for some time, you should be okay.

I should get mine next Tuesday or Wednesday or so; when I have it, I'll try to find out which cards are OK.

And if we can find a source in Europe that can ship multiple units, I don't mind forwarding them to the US, Aaron. If you have paypal and of course pay for shipping & other additional costs, we should be fine.

[sapnho]

sapnho, you wanna tell me where you got that so cheap?

Of course! The chain is called Saturn-Hansa and they have stores all over Germany (I am sure there is one near the Dutch border). I read about their offer Saturday morning in a magazine (where it said €280), immediately rushed to their store in Frankfurt and saw the unit. I asked a sales woman how much it was, and after looking it up in the computer she told me €200! I must admit, I was quite happy! :D

Jeroen, as you speak German, check out this site for hardware compatibility. http://www.silentservices.de/simpad/

[Aaron]

sapnho,
how can us not so fortunate people in the USA get our hands on some? I'd like to try one at least! If we throw in a few $ for you can you ship use some? Or can you get us an English speaking contact to buy them from in the store you went to?

you help is appreciated!

Aaron

[sapnho]

I'd be more than happy to help. However, this is a German version: The manual is only in German and so is the os and powersupply.

From what I am seeing there are more and more of these devices heavily discounted. Some time ago there was the ProGear, now the Siemens. And the device that Ben is using. I can't imagine that there aren't any international versions of the SL4.

Since today is the official date where the magazine where I read about the offer appears, I guess that the SL4 will be sold out quickly. There are quite a few on ebay at the moment, maybe even some with English versions.

[Mastiff]

Anybody want to trade one of those things with a working WLAN card against a Fujitsu-Siemens PocketLoox with CF WLAN card? I mean it, I would rather have a larger one of those for the living room instead of the PocketLoox now that I have a 5450 to carry around. Please make me an offer! 8)

[sapnho]

Well, I guess it will take some time to get the simpad baby going... First of all it still runs on PPC2000, although I believe it can be upgraded to PPC 2002 (Win CE 4.0). But then Ben still needs to tell us how to use a 800x600 resolution with PPC...

I would also like to use NR for my new frontend as I have a 6'' TFT in my HTPC. But I can't change resolution even in Win32 mode because I can't find the ini file... :cry:

[Ben S]

You shouldn't need to change the ini file. Make sure "Use Skin with Custom CCFs" is unchecked in the configuration, and then use Tonto to set the resolution to whatever you'd like.

Thats on Windows. On the PPC I'll need to do some coding to enable it.

[jeroen020]

Saphno, at http://www.ipaq36.de/update.html you canf ind some info (in German, again) on how to update the firmware to CE.net 4.0. Don't know if that makes running NR easier, but it might help!

[soren]

I dont think it runs PocketPC at all, it uses CE.

PocketPC and CE are two different operating systems right??

/Sören

[sapnho]

I was under the impression that PPC 2000 = Win CE 3.0 and PPC 2002 = Win CE 4.0

Is that correct?

[jeroen020]

Well, today I picked up my SL4 at the post office. It came with the German CE 3.0 version. This is not the same as PPC 2000, as I tried the Netremote PPC 2000 0.982 installer on it and it wouldn't work. However, you can trick a HPC CE device like the SL4 to accept PPC programs by adding a DLL called AYGSHELL.DLL to your windows directory. For tips on this (and others), check http://www.silentservices.de/simpad/simpad-faq.html (in German, of course...). I had wireless LAN up and running in a minute, since the I-gate 802.11b card it came with was supported out of the box.

Now I could run Netremote, but of course only in 240x320 mode (it would only occupy the top-left part of the 800x600 screen). Furthermore, I was not able to configure Netremote since all of the drivers were missing from the configuration menu.

Next I tried upgrading the SL4 to the English version of CE.net 4.0. I used the online-update feature (described as the last option at http://www.silentservices.de/simpad/simpad-install-howto.txt). Since I downloaded the new OS through WiFi, it went much faster than the serial options, I guess about 10 minutes total for a 20+ MB update. Rebooting the device, I then had a proper, English speaking CE.net 4.0 device. Free and legal. Cool. Got WiFi up and running again soon too, so moving on to the important stuff.

This time I tried the Netremote 0.982 PPC 2002 installer. It installed without any problems, but also in this OS it still needs the AYGSHELL.DLL. After adding that file to the windows directory, I was able to run Netremote. Again only occupying the top-left corner of the screen, but this time the configure menu contained all the usual drivers! I quickly set it up similar to my operation iPaq netremote and, voila, it worked like a charm, I could control everything in the way I was used to.

So I have very good hope now that if Ben is able to lift the 240x320 hard coded barrier of the PPC versions, we will be able to run Netremote in full 800x600 glory on an affordable, instant-on, high-res, low-power, lightweight touchscreen.

Some general impressions on the SL4 to conclude with:
- it's light at about 1 kg, but not extremely - it's tiring to hold it in one hand for a long time
- it looks pretty nice, more sophisticated and modest than the shiny things that PPC's usually are (my girlfriend likes it, so that's a big pro),
- it does not feature a lot of hardware buttons (the d-pad, power, exit/escape and an on-screen keyboard toggle, that's all)
- the screen can be set pretty bright, but there's no contrast control and it's not transflective, so it's hard to read in bright daylight conditions. Also, if you look at the screen at an angle, it becomes less readable too.
- the touchscreen seems a bit insensitive - you have to push pretty hard to 'click'
- the look and feel of the OS seem a bit less polished than PPC CE versions, but it works fine and is pretty easy to get used to coming from a PPC background
- transcriber handwriting recognition works great (I did not see this in CE 3.0, but it's standard in 4.0)
- CE.net 4.0 comes with the remote desktop client and you can also get VNC for it, so running it as a Netremote thin client is an option too
- basic web browsing is actually pretty doable!
- it works fine with ActiveSync 3.6, which was present on the desktop I used to install the software
- you can do a WiFi activesync between desktop and Simpad after the first installation of the system, so it's easy to keep the Simpad synced with your current CCF's even if you're far from your desktop.
- I was actually able to play an mp3 file on the speaker of the Simpad over the network, without any special tricks like you need on PPC 2002! Pretty amazing! Of course the speaker sounds as tinny as you'd expect, but the idea is pretty cool.
- Battery life seems pretty good, after running for half an hour, continuously using WiFi and playing some mp3's, it was at 80%

Well, that's it for now, I really hope Ben can find the time to look into the resolution issue - if that's solved, I'll definately try to get a couple more Simpads for myself and, if there's enough interest, perhaps pass some on to the other forum members.

[soren]

Nice,

How does the headphone jack sound?
Is it "noisy"?
I hope it is a stereo connection :)

/Sören

[jeroen020]

Good question: when I first inspected the Simpad I was surprised not to see an audio jack of any kind. You can however toggle headphones in the software. I just checked the manual and it turns out the serial connector doubles as a headphone/headset connector. You use this with a Siemens-compatible GSM-style headset. I assume no stereo and probably as tinny (if not worse) as the built-in speaker. I guess that's what you get when you let a telecom equipment company manufacture a CE device... The Simpad SLC model even features a built-in DECT/ISDN adapter...

For Ben I found a couple of links that may be interesting to look into for the technical/development properties of this device.
A usenet thread that gives some basic info on the state of HPC vs. CE.net:
http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&th=e65dd588d9605850&rnum=1

For the HPC 2000 version you can actually download the SDK's at http://www.my-siemens.com/MySiemens/CDA/Index/0,2730,HQ_en_0_product%253AHO%252FNW%252FWPD%252FS IMPADSL4%252Fdanda_DASD,FF.html

No such SDK's exist specifically for the CE.net 4.0 version, however I assume the standard CE.net 4.x development tools suffice.

I hope this makes sense!

[sapnho]

Super! Can't wait to get my wifi card!

[Mastiff]

jeroen020, are you by any chance interested in a Fujitsu-Siemens PocketLoox? I'll trade that, with CF WLAN card, for one of those SimPads with a WLAN card.

[jeroen020]

Hey Mastiff,

I'd first like to check the full potential of Netremote on the Simpad, so currently not (yet). Do you have the specs on the Pocketloox?

To everyone: I talked to a shop today in The Netherlands, they may be able to sell me 10 Simpads at a reasonable price (350 Euro or so). They'll be brand new. If there's enough interest, I consider getting a bunch and help out some other forum member. My thoughts would be to send active contributors to Netremote the Simpad at cost and others at a small premium. If you like, I can even upgrade it to CE.net v4 for you.

I'll post a group buy post as a separate thread, to keep things clear.

[Mastiff]

The Loox has an XScale 400 processor, 64 meg ram, and I'll throw in a 128 meg minicard (SD or something), and it has the CF slot at the top. It has built in Bluetooth and the one thing that I miss on my Ipaq 5450: More hardbuttons and a much better D-pad. It's quite precisely one year old now. The WLAN card is a Trend and works better than the built in WLAN on the Ipaq (faster connection time, longer range). I thought the Ipaq had longer range, but later found out that it was the other way around.

[Ben S]

Thanks for the link, I downloaded and installed the SDK for the SimPad HPC2000 edition, but haven't tried it yet. I'll see if I can copy the AYGSHELL.dll for x86 to the emulator to see if it will run.

Just a question or two. Does flipping NetRemote to fullscreen mode to anything on the SimPad? Does it have a menu header or anything that disappears? Does everything seem to work as needed with 0.99rc8?

[jeroen020]

Mastiff, thanks for the explanation... I was not being very clever here, I saw Fujitsu & thought Tablet PC, didn't realise it was a PocketPC... Sorry, I already have 4 Ipaqs in different places doing various Netremote tasks, so I'm afraid I'll only be adding Tablet devices from now on...

Ben, I'm now at work, so I can't check the exact behaviour of Netremote on the Simpad, but I recall that it showed the menu items and when switching to fullscreen it hides them, just like on the PocketPC. A strip of pixels was cut off at the top though, and the previous application was still occupying the rest of the screen (Netremote taking only the top-left 240x320 bit). I tested a few netremote butotns, switching my amp on/off etc, and that worked flawlessly. I'll do some more testing tonight, try to take some pictures too, see if I get that to work. Any things I should pay special attention to?

[jeroen020]

Ben, I did some more testing last weekend with Netremote. Unfortunately my internet connection was down, so I couldn't download .99rc8, was testing with the PPC2002 version of 0.98.

When I flip to fullscreen, it shifts the screen up by as many pixels as the menu header (file, about) previously occupied. A 'ghost' of the previous bottom part (including the standard skin buttons of my CCF) remains, but is inactive. When you toggle back to menu screen, it switches back to the old situation with the menu header on top.
The top part of the CCF is never displayed, I guess about the size of the menu header is cropped of the top.
Also, Netremote is just taking the upper left 240x320 part of the screen, still showing the previous running application on the remaining part of the screen.

When testing my CCF, I could not notice any difference whatsoever in behaviour of the Simpad when compared to my Ipaq 3660 (PPC 2002). Everything worked as expected.

I'll continue testing, just downloaded 0.99. Let me know if there's anything else I can do to clarify.

[jeroen020]

Hmm, I can't get 0.99 to run yet on the Simpad. Immediately after I click on it, I get a pop-up error message that not all components can be found. This is the same message I received with 0.98 before I installed any of the DLL hacks. However, I did both DLL hacks (AYGSHELL.DLL is present on the Simpad, and I placed the MFCCE300.DLL ont he Simpad, renamed as MFCCESL4.DLL and changed the reference to MFCCE300.DLL in Netremote.exe from a hex editor).

When I uninstall and go back to 0.98, it works again.

Any clues? Something I can do to investigate?

[Ben S]

Sure. First pull out all off the drivers. Leave just NetRemote and zlibce.dll in the NetRemote directory, and rerun it.

If this still fails, I should be able to run a link checker to see what .dll's NetRemote is expecting now that it's MFC.

Thanks jeroen!

[sapnho]

Hmm, now that I have all the components, I cannot get my wireless network to run.

I am using the Simpad SL4 with a Netgear MA701 (plus CF adapter). The driver for Win CE installs well and it looks like it works. In my jukebox PC I have the Netgear MA311. That also installed well.

I now want to set up an adhoc network between the two (no access point). I have set both to the same channel and BSSID. They "seem" to recognise each other but a ping doesn't work. Also the signal strength is very low although I am only 10m away from the unit.

Can anybody point me in the right direction or recommend a good wifi forum? Thanks!

[jeroen020]

Saphno, I have no experience with ad-hoc wifi networks - I can only tell you that with my I-gate card it worked like a charm, no trouble in setting it up whatsoever. Since you have two Netgear cards you want to do ad-hoc with, perhaps Netgear support is able to help you out? The Simpad is just a CE(.net) device, if Netgear has an official driver for this, they should be able to support you.
I can recommend using an accesspoint for added flexibility, security and signal strength.

Ben, I removed all drivers that came with Netremote as you suggested, then resetted the Simpad, but I still get the generic 'Cannot Find Netremote (or one of its components)' message.

Thanks,

Jeroen

[sapnho]

Hmmm, now that my new wifi card for the simpad arrived (Airlancer MC-11) and everything works fine, I can't wait for Ben to finish the 800x600 version for NetRemote.... 8)

[Nicholasp27]

I'm really leaning towards the point 1600. Does it look as sleek in person as it does in pictures? Is it possible to write on it and have that translated to text? Or is that only on tablets that can run winxp? Are there any downsides to it other than slow boot times associated with it running windows?

I'd like to use it to:
a) run netremote to control htpc, x10,etc
b) surf net wirelessly
c) take notes in class
d) take with me to potential clients to demo my products

Any reason this won't satisfy my needs?

Also, if I get one w/out an OS installed, how do you install an OS? I can only see a usb port for cdrom, but then that won't load w/out windows support. What device and ports do u use to install an os on these tablet pcs?


Thanks,
Nicholas

[Saint]

I'd like to use it to:
a) run netremote to control htpc, x10,etc
b) surf net wirelessly
c) take notes in class
d) take with me to potential clients to demo my products

Any reason this won't satisfy my needs?

Also, if I get one w/out an OS installed, how do you install an OS? I can only see a usb port for cdrom, but then that won't load w/out windows support. What device and ports do u use to install an os on these tablet pcs?

a) No problem
b) No Problem
c) hmm..I only use it for NR so I can not really say.
d) Depends.
Yes, but it is Win98 and not even close to as stable
as WinXP, and it is a P166MHz so it is not fast.
This is no problem for NetRemote as it is not very
resource intensive.

It has a port for a floppy drive and a parallel port and I think a serial port.

The one I got on ebay came with the docking station and floppy drive and parallel cdrom drive. Will boot from the floppy and DOS drivers available for the CD so you can install and OS.


HTH,
Patrick

[Ben S]

The Point 1600 that I have started with Windows 95. Windows 95 did not support USB.

I also could not get an ethernet card to work in Windows 95, so I did this the hard way. I zipped up the contents of the Windows 98 disc, and connected at 119200 bps via a null modem (crossover) cable and sent the entire contents of the disc via z-modem.

It tooks 6-7 hours to get the contents sent, but then I unzipped the files and installed from there.

[alaricljs]

Does the Point 1600 require that you use the pen? Also, is there a restricted list of what wireless cards work with this thing (in win98) or could I go with any win98 compatible card?

Thanks!

[Ben S]

No, but you will need to use your fingernail if not. Unlike the simpad it expects a small point.

In regards to wireless cards, I don't think there is a restriction. I had an SMC card I didn't need anymore when I upgraded laptops, plugged it right in and was good to go.