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rkirmeier
March 17th, 2011, 11:50 AM
Ok, this is a little rediculous that Promixis has not committed to developing a Android and/or iPhone client yet! Honestly I couldn't care less about the iPhone client as I use Android but with all the tablets being released I just don't get it. I have been running my existing NR setup via RDP on my HTC EVO and B&N Nook but native support is the only way to go. I'm pretty much ready to just give my HP PDAs away because now that I have been using my EVO for a while using the old school PDAs is a complete joke!!!

There is even a forum member that a good start in creating a native Android client but it's very limited in functionality and it appears he does not have the time to keep improving his application although what he has done already is very impressive! How is it that a forum member can put something like this together but Promixis can't? This is exactly how companies end up failing in that they don't see and accept technology. NR was a good solution but Promixis needs to come up with a Android (maybe iPhone) solution ASAP or someone else is going to.

Promixis, TIME TO WAKE UP!!!

So, but this rant is well over due!!!

tmorten
March 17th, 2011, 05:17 PM
Glad to hear that you love NetRemote so much that you want an Android version!

You may have missed my various other posts, but for cross-platform support, I strongly recommend that you use the Girder webserver. It's popular to think that "native is better", but the reality is that web-hosted control is the future. The market is so fragmented right now, between Blackberry, Android, iOS, Windows Phone, and WebOS, not to mention Windows Desktop, MacOS, Linux, etc. that it is impractical to focus on native apps. Web-hosted apps run on all these platforms and more.

Google, Apple, and many other companies have embraced HTML5, and it is already possible to output HTML5 from the Girder webserver. PEAC also leverages HTML5 technologies. Trust me when I say that web-hosted control is the future.

Best,
Tim

rkirmeier
March 17th, 2011, 07:34 PM
I have some issues with using a web browser as a replacement for NR.

1. Advanced HTML editing is not easy at all!
2. There are reports that from others who have done this that layout is not consistent from device to device so the idea of a web browser being universal is not the case.
3. I don't want to waste screen space in my remote because of address bars, tabs, browser menu buttons.
4. If you want easy access to your web remote and be able to browse the web you will have to use tabs.
5. Andre already has support for Android widgets. Very cool feature, never going to happen in the web browser.

So if you think the web browser is the way of the future please explain to me why there are over 100,000 native applications for iPhone and Android devices? It because native apps have more control, power, and flexibility. I really couldn't disagree more about the idea of using a web browser as a replacement. I sure hope it does not come down to this!


Update: I have reviewed some of your posts regarding building a web interface. If people need to rely on writing javascript and advanced HTML or HTML5 you can pretty much say good to NR and girder. There are going to be very few people who are going to have the knowledge and skills to do anything good via a web browser. The one thing NR/Girder has always had going for it is that it was easy to setup, configure, and design.

jwilson56
March 17th, 2011, 07:54 PM
Unfortunately I think this is the direction that Promixis is taking. Personally I disagree with it as well. I recently got a new Droid 2 Global and now enjoy viewing my Vitek DVR with Total Control and using many other applications. I have not seen many companies trying to use web control for any of their applications. Even the new Grace Audio Internet Tuner I purchased just recently developed an Android control application for it.

CQC, Elve and Homeseer all have Android apps being developed.

This point has been discussed to death and I doubt we will change their minds. What I have developed with Netremote and Girder 5 works fine for now (using RDP from my Android) but my future lies with a company that is willing to keep up with new technologies as mainstream as Android and Iphone.

http://www.gracedigitalaudio.com/page.html?id=78

rkirmeier
March 18th, 2011, 07:43 AM
This is what I don't get... Everyone out there is making a Android and/or iPhone application for their devices (music systems, dish, directv, cable, x10, etc). The list could go on and on yet a company that is focused on control and automation is not making a Android and/or iPhone app. This has got to be one of the most stupid product decisions I have seen in a long time from a company. Oh, it was good while it lasted... I guess it's time to move on...

RIP Promixis!

tmorten
March 18th, 2011, 10:16 AM
1. Advanced HTML editing is not easy at all!
No harder than LUA; graphical tools from many companies (Adobe included) already exist. As I mentioned, I am also working on some tools to help.


2. There are reports that from others who have done this that layout is not consistent from device to device so the idea of a web browser being universal is not the case.
With HTML3, you need to learn how to get consistent results. With HTML5, behavior is consistent from device to device.


3. I don't want to waste screen space in my remote because of address bars, tabs, browser menu buttons.
You don't need to. There are many tools (such as PhoneGap) which will host your layout with no address bar.


4. If you want easy access to your web remote and be able to browse the web you will have to use tabs.
Again, if you use a tool like PhoneGap, your control instance will be entirely separate from your browser instance, just as would be the case if you were running a dedicated remote control app.


5. Andre already has support for Android widgets. Very cool feature, never going to happen in the web browser.
Actually, many platform-specific features are possible in a browser app thanks to extension tools like PhoneGap.


So if you think the web browser is the way of the future please explain to me why there are over 100,000 native applications for iPhone and Android devices?
There were 1,000,000 applications for DOS too. Are you still using it?


It because native apps have more control, power, and flexibility.
Your lack of foundation for this statement is amusing. There is absolutely no reason that you can't implement remote control functionality using HTML5 that is every bit as powerful and flexible as a native app.


I really couldn't disagree more about the idea of using a web browser as a replacement. I sure hope it does not come down to this!I'm sorry to hear that.

Best Regards,
Tim

tmorten
March 18th, 2011, 10:24 AM
This is what I don't get... Everyone out there is making a Android and/or iPhone application for their devices (music systems, dish, directv, cable, x10, etc). The list could go on and on yet a company that is focused on control and automation is not making a Android and/or iPhone app. This has got to be one of the most stupid product decisions I have seen in a long time from a company. Oh, it was good while it lasted... I guess it's time to move on... RIP Promixis!

To address the "everyone else is doing it" point: it takes a lot of resources to support different applications for different platforms. The way you develop an iPhone app versus an Android app versus a Windows Phone 7 app versus a WebOS app is very different. Not to mention Windows Desktop, MacOS, Linux, etc.

Everyone has their favorite horse in the race. A couple of months ago, the clamor was for iOS support. Today the clamor is for Android support. Tomorrow it will be for something else. If Promixis were a huge company, we could afford to chase our tail, but we need to look to the future and not get caught up in a short-sighted debate.

The reality is that web-hosted apps can be every bit as capable as native apps, and that they can be developed in such a way that they work on every single platform with a modern browser. If you want to write a premature epitaph based on our forward thinking, that's you're prerogative - there are some other small start-ups, like a little company called Google, who are betting their future on the same forward thinking that we are. Personally, I wouldn't count them (or us) out of the race.

Best,
Tim

Manser
March 18th, 2011, 11:02 AM
I agree with all the platforms, thats hard for you.

But if I think that I have to bring all the possibilities that NR gives me to a html page... "OH my good".
All the client scripting stuff, all the states, timer functionality and so on...

Even to design a html page, with html and css and all the code between the
tags... then you cant really use a WYSIWYG designer like DW. You have to code that.

Lot of company which provide a webvisu do that with a java applet, they provide a WYSIWYG Designer which creates all the content.
Did you ever thought about that??

You can give the user all the power of NR-Designer and you have a cross-platform running application at the end!

tmorten
March 18th, 2011, 12:02 PM
I agree with all the platforms, thats hard for you.

But if I think that I have to bring all the possibilities that NR gives me to a html page... "OH my good".
All the client scripting stuff, all the states, timer functionality and so on...

Even to design a html page, with html and css and all the code between the
tags... then you cant really use a WYSIWYG designer like DW. You have to code that.

Lot of company which provide a webvisu do that with a java applet, they provide a WYSIWYG Designer which creates all the content.
Did you ever thought about that??

You can give the user all the power of NR-Designer and you have a cross-platform running application at the end!

Thanks for the constructive comment - I agree with you 100% that an editor is the way to go. These days, you don't even need Java. Here's a screenshot of a WYSIWYG editor that I am currently working on, using just HTML3 (not even HTML5). The pages that it outputs are tailored to work directly with the Girder webserver. And yes, it supports variables and full drag & drop, just like NetRemote and Designer. :)

Cheers,
Tim

shaun5
March 18th, 2011, 09:09 PM
I believe the web interface is the future. I use an iPad with a Girder web app for two way control of my lights, hvac, and media room.

Currently, I think the problem is that the web interface is such a blank canvas. I think a showcase of more projects like http://www.promixis.com/forums/showthread.php?t=20855, may inspire users to create more incredible cross platform interfaces. A few pages with cheesy icon layouts and the tiny amount of jquery to make a functioning page could do it as well...

tmorten
March 18th, 2011, 10:54 PM
I believe the web interface is the future. I use an iPad with a Girder web app for two way control of my lights, hvac, and media room.

Currently, I think the problem is that the web interface is such a blank canvas. I think a showcase of more projects like http://www.promixis.com/forums/showthread.php?t=20855, may inspire users to create more incredible cross platform interfaces. A few pages with cheesy icon layouts and the tiny amount of jquery to make a functioning page could do it as well...

Very true; below are some various screens that I use to control my home setup via the Girder webserver:

The possibilities are pretty limitless!

Best,
Tim

http://savagegames.com/pictures/index.jpghttp://savagegames.com/pictures/media.jpghttp://savagegames.com/pictures/weather.jpghttp://savagegames.com/pictures/lighting.jpg

harleydude
March 18th, 2011, 11:25 PM
Tim,

I have followed the OS debate for some time now and your comments on a web based environment . You have shown some nice screen shots of what you have been able to do with the web interface, however there is still a lot that NR can do that a web interface can not provide, easily. NR is what has drawn a lot of people to the Girder/NR environment.

There has been a lot of development time and energy put into NR, it would be a real shame if NR were to die. I have looked at other Windows based applications similar to NR, and none hold a candle to NR's capabilities. If Promixis were to decide that for other Os's web based is the way to go, that would be fine with me, but if Promixis were to abandon NR for Windows, that would be a real shame. Last time I checked Windows still hold 90+ of the PC market.

I see that Rob as not been on the forums since August 2010, or so. I can only assume that he has stopped working on NR. If that is the case and there is no one working on NR, then tell us. If that is the case then consider allowing NR to become an open source project. That would allow someone to pick up the project and not burden Promixis with NR and allow NR to live in its glory. NR is a great product, it is a shame that Promixis does not see the value in continuing to develop or support it.

I, for one, will continue to use G/NR until it can't meet my needs or I find a Windows based touchscreen application that can match NR's capabilities.

NetRemote was ahead of its time in 2004, when I started using it, and still is today. It is only a matter of time before the other guys catch up. Will NR stay ahead of the pack or will it die a early death?

Promixis, I await your answer.

tmorten
March 19th, 2011, 12:25 AM
I see that Rob as not been on the forums since August 2010, or so. I can only assume that he has stopped working on NR. If that is the case and there is no one working on NR, then tell us. If that is the case then consider allowing NR to become an open source project. That would allow someone to pick up the project and not burden Promixis with NR and allow NR to live in its glory. NR is a great product, it is a shame that Promixis does not see the value in continuing to develop or support it.

NetRemote continues to be sold and supported. Rob is not the only developer at Promixis.

That said, Ron and I are in agreement that web hosted is the future.

Cheers,
Tim

rkirmeier
March 19th, 2011, 07:56 AM
Well it's clear in the direction Promixis is taking. Until you get some type editor and samples for people to build on it's pretty much useless for everyone but html programmers. Although you may think you are saving yourself a lot of effort I just don't see how is makes business sense. You can't sell a web interface to NR so now instead of having two products (girder and nr) to sell you only have 1. I suppose you will raise the price of girder to compensate but people don't want to spend a lot on 1 piece of software. Further, for someone like myself I wouldn't hesitate to dump $50+ on a android version of NR and you could even require a new version of girder to go with it for another $50+ but instead you force me to go the html or Andre so you get nothing from me! Yeah, that makes a lot of business sense. I am committed to Android so I am probably going to be patient with the slow development of Andre.

Another thing you fail to recognize in Android or iPhone development is the excitement of these platforms. Having a app, maybe a free and paid version, that no one else has would get a lot of publicity and the number of users is so huge on these platforms. I would bet there are more smartphones out there right now then the total PDAs ever sold and this is just a start! You have a good backend (girder) and if you had a Android front end you could see such a huge increase in users and actually make something great out of this company. The traffic on your forums compared to years ago just goes to show where things are going and you fail to recognize the potential of Android or iPhone. You are trying to take the easy route and well companies don't become great because of easy routes.

There are a lot of people making a lot of money off Android and iPhone apps because the numbers are so huge you can sell for just a few bucks but you fail to recognize this. Having an app in the Android or iPhone markets is like free advertising, you aren't going to get any free advertising with HTML!

tmorten
March 19th, 2011, 09:06 AM
Well it's clear in the direction Promixis is taking. Until you get some type editor and samples for people to build on it's pretty much useless for everyone but html programmers.
It's also clear what your attitude is. :) For those who don't feel comfortable writing code, a screenshot of the forthcoming editor has already been posted earlier in this thread. For those who are comfortable writing code, many code samples have already been posted, with source:
http://www.promixis.com/forums/showthread.php?t=21012
http://www.promixis.com/forums/showthread.php?t=20636
http://www.promixis.com/forums/showthread.php?t=20675
http://www.promixis.com/forums/showthread.php?p=140973#post140973


Although you may think you are saving yourself a lot of effort I just don't see how is makes business sense. You can't sell a web interface to NR so now instead of having two products (girder and nr) to sell you only have 1. I suppose you will raise the price of girder to compensate but people don't want to spend a lot on 1 piece of software.
Girder's price will not be going up. Making assumptions like this is how bad information gets spread.


Further, for someone like myself I wouldn't hesitate to dump $50+ on a android version of NR and you could even require a new version of girder to go with it for another $50+ but instead you force me to go the html or Andre so you get nothing from me! Yeah, that makes a lot of business sense. I am committed to Android so I am probably going to be patient with the slow development of Andre.
Let's talk about the business side for a moment, since you bring it up. You seem to be under the mistaken impression that enthusiast home automation is a volume business. It is not. There are a VERY limited number of people out there who have any interest in going beyond their Harmony remote. For a small company with limited resources, it makes zero sense to focus our effort on a fraction of that market (ie - owners of one particular operating system) when we can instead focus our effort on something capable of servicing ALL of that market. We obviously intend to monetize our effort when we feel that it is worthy of being monetized, but how we go about that is not something I'm prepared to discuss publicly right now. You can be certain that we will do it in a way that is as sensitive as possible to our current user base, while still enabling Promixis to continue development. There is nothing easy about the development that we are doing - it requires a substantial investment of time and resources.


Another thing you fail to recognize...[SNIP]
The rest of your post can be summarized as follows: "I really really want an Android application, and I think I know your business better than you do." I admire your passion, but you're going to have to accept that we have a perspective based on both engineering experience and business experience in this space. It is not our goal to frustrate anyone (yourself included), but we have to be very smart about how we allocate our resources. We cannot afford to get caught up in shortsighted debate at the expense of the big picture.

Best Regards,
Tim

jwilson56
March 19th, 2011, 09:57 AM
I have been doing Home Automation for a long time. I was approached many years ago by Promixis to help take Girder to the next level and beta test and give ideas for home automation functions since I was currently using Netremote with Homeseer. As Girder 4 then 5 became robust enough I migrated my Now Playing project over. I have also been a major voice in getting the word out about NR/G with my blog on Cocoontech. I have had many PM's telling me that they have used my setup as a model. I also have gotten many PM's over the past year asking what is up with Promixis as the new development has stalled.

I understand the home automation business as well and it is a niche market. With the current economic climate it has shrunk. But I have to disagree with many of the statements made above. I have recently upgraded to a smartphone. I was amazed at all the applications for it (Cocoontech lists over 800 apps for HA that run on smartphones).

I run a Vitek DVR (very niche market) and low and behold there is Android app for it. I just purchased a Grace Digital Audio tuner (very very niche market) and wow they have an awesome free app to control it. There are Android apps for Homeseer and many other niche home automation applications. Some of these apps were written by summer interns and others by third party as well as internal programmers. These other companies also have a small development teams (like 1!) and yet they seem to understand the importance of supporting the smartphone. Smartphones are infectious and people want apps that run on them.

I can tell you that your strategy will most likely fail. In the past several months the second I mention that Netremote does not work with a smartphone they instantly dismiss it for consideration. You might get a few people here and there but the home automation community in general will turn its back on Promixis. Don't believe me? Just go post a poll on Cocoontech which is one of the largest forums for HA and see what the response is.

I have posted a link to download a video of my Droid skin done in NR and the PM's I get are 'wow that is cool' and then when they learn I am using RDP on my Droid to get to NR they lose all interest.

To stay positive I might make these suggestions. If you come up with some magic editor to create these HTML screens I would hide the fact it is indeed HTML and come up with a flashy name for it. Having a drag and drop editor like NRD that creates the code in the background would go a long way. It will have to support Popup frames, Mediabridge, DM and sliders. Also include working examples with lots of nice graphics. Good luck.

tmorten
March 19th, 2011, 10:24 AM
I understand the home automation business as well and it is a niche market. With the current economic climate it has shrunk. But I have to disagree with many of the statements made above. I have recently upgraded to a smartphone. I was amazed at all the applications for it (Cocoontech lists over 800 apps for HA that run on smartphones).

I run a Vitek DVR (very niche market) and low and behold there is Android app for it. I just purchased a Grace Digital Audio tuner (very very niche market) and wow they have an awesome free app to control it. There are Android apps for Homeseer and many other niche home automation applications. Some of these apps were written by summer interns and others by third party as well as internal programmers. These other companies also have a small development teams (like 1!) and yet they seem to understand the importance of supporting the smartphone. Smartphones are infectious and people want apps that run on them.

First, let me say that I am a big fan of John and his work!

I recognize that there are many home automation native apps out there. How many of them run on all of the following: Blackberry, iOS, Android, Windows Phone 7, WebOS, Windows Desktop, MacOS, Linux? :)

John is absolutely correct that some home automation packages have embraced native apps. Many are free apps from hardware companies. Many are free or cheap apps from home enthusiasts. Only a VERY few are playing in the same league with Girder and NetRemote. Whether the native app approach works out for those companies financially in the long run is yet to be determined. John obviously has one opinion, and I have a different one.


I can tell you that your strategy will most likely fail. In the past several months the second I mention that Netremote does not work with a smartphone they instantly dismiss it for consideration. You might get a few people here and there but the home automation community in general will turn its back on Promixis. Don't believe me? Just go post a poll on Cocoontech which is one of the largest forums for HA and see what the response is.

(EDIT: Corrected) The last poll I saw on Cocoontech barely cracked 100 responses; I take this as validation of my point that this is a TINY and fragmented market. I control my entire home using Girder with a smartphone - so anyone who thinks that is not already possible is incorrect. It is the perception that native apps are required to use a smart phone which is causing the reaction you describe.


To stay positive I might make these suggestions. If you come up with some magic editor to create these HTML screens I would hide the fact it is indeed HTML and come up with a flashy name for it. Having a drag and drop editor like NRD that creates the code in the background would go a long way. It will have to support Popup frames, Mediabridge, DM and sliders. Also include working examples with lots of nice graphics. Good luck.

Thanks for your input -- you can be certain that we do indeed take it to heart. I hear your skepticism, and I regret that you disagree with our direction. I want to assure you that our focus remains squarely on producing the best automation software that we can.

Very Best,
Tim

jwilson56
March 19th, 2011, 11:07 AM
Actually I meant post a poll on Cocoontech and see what the response would be.

The very reason this forum has slowed down is do to the lack of new development (this from many people I know). Harleydude and I chat almost everyday and we both see the slow down here. There are many old timers that used to frequent the forums that are no longer around. We both have a lot of time invested with Promixis and would like it to succeed. Let's not debate the why's as much as how do we get people excited about Promixis again.

Tim I truly hope what you come up with works. I will be happy to test drive it but I also have to say I hate HTML and frame programming. It is what Now Playing started with before I moved it over to Labview then onto Netremote 1.0.

tmorten
March 19th, 2011, 12:57 PM
I'll take this opportunity to talk a little bit about what I'm cooking up...

I am focused on providing some easy to use tools for those who feel daunted by the prospect of learning HTML to generate Girder webserver pages. I want to stress that my work is an interim solution, while Ron is developing a much more advanced architecture with PEAC. My tools are NOT intended to replicate every bit of functionality from NetRemote. Advanced users who are dealing with LUA in NetRemote will still want to ramp up on HTML/Javascript if they intend to replicate exactly what they were doing in NetRemote.

http://threescape.com/pictures/Variable.jpg

This image shows the beginnings of a drag & drop interface for laying out buttons on a control page. It supports variables as button names, and each button can either trigger a Girder action (events are generated that can be hooked up in the existing Girder GUI), or can cause a jump to a new page. The visibility of buttons will also be scriptable. Entire pages (and any custom buttons associated with them) can easily be shared via an integrated interface, leveraging the cloud.

The resulting webserver control pages will run on any device with a modern browser. I have tested on iPhone, iPad, Android, Windows Phone 7, Windows Desktop, and MacOS. I have every expectation that Blackberry, WebOS, and Linux users will also be in good shape.

Advanced users will have immediate feature requests: this interface may or may not grow to accommodate more functionality at some point, but right now I am going to start with the most commonly used functionality. Again, my goal here is not to replicate every feature of NetRemote and Designer: my goal is to provide an easy mechanism for creating Girder webserver control pages.

Cheers,
Tim

jwilson56
March 19th, 2011, 04:15 PM
Take a look at my Droid skin. This is what I would want for basic NR functions.

http://www.sendspace.com/file/mr85g4

Mike C
March 19th, 2011, 07:56 PM
Hi all,

my 2 cents...

I think Tim is right. There are too many OS's and various hardware platforms to support with a local client. 3 main OS's is a tremendous amount of work. Just the development tools and test hardware would cost thousands. Never mind development hours and support time. It would be hard to have any ROI given the volume of sales in this space.

I would love to see NRD enhanced to produce HTML 5 web pages for Girder to serve up. No software to install. Easy to support. No CCF's to distribute to devices.

davidsetton
March 19th, 2011, 09:28 PM
Hi all,

my 2 cents...

I think Tim is right. There are too many OS's and various hardware platforms to support with a local client. 3 main OS's is a tremendous amount of work. Just the development tools and test hardware would cost thousands. Never mind development hours and support time. It would be hard to have any ROI given the volume of sales in this space.

I would love to see NRD enhanced to produce HTML 5 web pages for Girder to serve up. No software to install. Easy to support. No CCF's to distribute to devices.

I agree. I have been using netremote and girder for 8 years now. I would love a to use my android device to control girder through a website produced by Netremote Designer.

jwilson56
March 19th, 2011, 10:04 PM
Tim have you done a GAC like listing for displaying albums and drilling down to tracks?

tmorten
March 19th, 2011, 10:42 PM
Tim have you done a GAC like listing for displaying albums and drilling down to tracks?

I laid the groundwork for GAC+ through the webserver last year (screens here: http://www.promixis.com/forums/showpost.php?p=143234&postcount=66). I plan to eventually provide interface hooks from the WYSIWYG editor that I am working on.

Cheers,
Tim

Jlee
March 21st, 2011, 09:06 AM
As someone who did a lot of development on my own NR interface in the early 2000's this is an interesting debate. I stopped developing because I realised I need to get out more lol. I also realised I was spending about 95% of the time making a CCF and 5% actually using it, which makes absolutely no sense at all.

So in the last 4 or 5 years I've not done any development and instead have spent the time getting enjoyment out of my hard work all those years ago. The CCF still works great and satisfies my needs.

Perhaps the only thing I might want to change in the future is the type of device I run it on. I ditched the PDA a long time ago in favour of a nice silver 11" Sony Vaio but in future I may want to run it on e.g. an iPad. Would that be possible by converting the CCF functionality to HTML without me giving up all my evenings and weekends for another 2 years trying to understand how to convert everything?

My CCF is NR 2 based with only minor (non-essential) Girder 3.3 functionality.

rkirmeier
March 21st, 2011, 09:11 PM
You know if you guys would just create an Android and iPhone native NR then bundle a small hardware package together with girder your market could be huge. Think wireless add-on IR modules. Something anyone could buy that could control all there AV equipment with their handy smart phone. You may be in a niche market but it's only because you are limiting your scope... With your programing skills you could probably have a basic native Andriod app together in a weekend, how long you been working on the html editor????

tmorten
March 22nd, 2011, 09:28 AM
You know if you guys would just create an Android and iPhone native NR then bundle a small hardware package together with girder your market could be huge. Think wireless add-on IR modules. Something anyone could buy that could control all there AV equipment with their handy smart phone. You may be in a niche market but it's only because you are limiting your scope... With your programing skills you could probably have a basic native Andriod app together in a weekend, how long you been working on the html editor????

Here's what I'm hearing (again): "I really really want an Android application, and I think I know your business better than you do."

Developing a native app for a single platform is as much or more work than developing a web-driven app that supports ALL modern platforms. Therefore, developing platform-specific apps is not a good expenditure of time versus developing a web-driven app. Targeting all platforms with one app is not a scope limitation, in fact it is the broadest scope possible.

Regarding hardware bundles: there are multiple companies with released products along the lines of what you have described, and contrary to your speculation that the market for such a product would be huge, it is not clear whether any of these companies have even recouped their R&D costs. Again, the number of people who want to go beyond the capabilities of an off-the-shelf Harmony remote is very limited.

At the end of the day, web-hosted is the current focus. It's possible this might ultimately be wrapped with a tool like PhoneGap to produce platform-targeted installations of the common base. Stay tuned for development updates in the coming months.

Cheers,
Tim

harleydude
March 22nd, 2011, 08:00 PM
Tim,

The direction Promixis has decided to go may provide future avenues for revenue. However, right now NetRemote is Promixis' flag ship product for touchscreens and an immediate source of revenue.

A couple of points to make:

A new release of NetRemote has not been released since Jul. 27, 2009, almost 2 years.
There have been many posts mentioning bugs/feature requests dating back prior to that release that have not been resolved.
The last time I checked, the Windows operating system is not just today's fad, in fact, it is real and has been real for more time than both NetRemote and Girder have been in existence.


I have been a member of these boards, and a user of Girder/NetRemote for 5+ years, I have seen the average time between releases. What I have seen in almost the last 2 years with NetRemote is no activity. Wny?

I am not sure how many new users visit the boards, but what does Promixis think they will leave with when they see threads like this one and no development on the existing product?

People often ask if, "Promixis is dead?" Maybe a more appropriate question to ask, "Is NetRemote dead?" Well, is It?

As a small business owner myself, I ask myself the following. Would I stop supporting a product that is generating revenue, in favor of something that held a possible promise sometime in the future? No, because I might not have a customer base to sell that new product to when it is ready.

If you are not going to develop applications for each and every OS that comes around, fine; but do not give up on a product that generates revenue, runs on a OS that owns at least 89% of the market already and is already in the production cycle.

tmorten
March 22nd, 2011, 08:54 PM
Tim,

The direction Promixis has decided to go may provide future avenues for revenue. However, right now NetRemote is Promixis' flag ship product for touchscreens and an immediate source of revenue.

[SNIP]

I am not sure how many new users visit the boards, but what does Promixis think they will leave with when they see threads like this one and no development on the existing product?

People often ask if, "Promixis is dead?" Maybe a more appropriate question to ask, "Is NetRemote dead?" Well, is It?

Thanks for your input - I do appreciate it. To be completely clear: Netremote is still sold and supported. It is a stable product, and it serves its purpose well. We stand by NetRemote and the thousands of people who are currently using it. We may decide to make future NetRemote Windows releases, or we may not. The point of this thread is NOT to make any statement about discontinuing NetRemote.

This thread is about using other platforms than Windows as a control interfaces. The current solution to that is web-hosted.

Cheers,
Tim

quixote
March 23rd, 2011, 12:46 AM
...you could probably have a basic native Andriod app together in a weekend, how long you been working on the html editor????

I have to say, I'm with you on wanting a native Android app to couple with Girder, and it's here with Andre.
I am getting sick of hearing you say things like Andre's development is slow and that an Android app could be whipped up in a weekend, though. Clearly you have no experience in this matter whatsoever. What app did you create last weekend? Maybe you should build an Android Netremote if it's so simple and easy.
As a tester of Andre (and I like to think of myself as playing a minor part in its development by making suggestions for features and improvements), I have a "behind-the scenes" look at what is going on with Luke's work. I can tell you that there is nothing slow about the way this guy works. The latest improvement list is nothing short of phenomenal, to say the least. He's already got working sprite animations, which is something I always thought would be a sweet feature for Netremote.

mpg732
March 24th, 2011, 11:04 AM
For all you guys pissing and moaning about apps for this, apps for that. Have you guys really researched using HTML and Girder. The possibilities are endless. IF you ask me HTTP is so much easier and so much more supported then LUA. will ever be. I for one would rather have a solutions for all these products then to have an app for one or two devises.

The one thing I agree with, is a lot of you including my self have invested a lot of time creating CFF's and hate the thought of having to spend more time recreating them in another format. Either way if you want to use a smart phones, tablets and so on, we are all going to have to learn something new and invest time getting it to work.

So I will end by asking you this, if you have to learn something new, what would you want to learn, the individual apps or something universal that would work on all the devises?

VicVonDoom
March 26th, 2011, 03:15 PM
Seeing as everyone has something to say about this, here's my two pence.

Pro's of the new styleee...

MultiDevice usage.
MultiPlatform usage.
Less load on the tech support forum as only one thing to support.
Only one lot of code to write for multiple devices.
Con's of the new styleee...

Another language to attempt to learn!
Less of a wow factor as we don't have a dedicated software icon to impress our pals with - just an internet browser, which is far cheaper-looking...

Jims Final Thought
I totally understand the promixis stand point on this and agree myself with most of their argument.
It is a business and businesses need income.
If you can reach out to a larger audience = more sales.

The delivery of this news could have been better!

The way us existing users saw it was "NetRemote is dead. We now have to learn Webstuff."
Perhaps, a fade out into the new stylee would have created less of a public relations disaster to existing customers!

For the sake of promixis's excellent reputation, i hope this new 'web generator' tim is working on, exceeds NRD! (no pressure :-) )

Keep up the good work chaps!

mpg732
March 26th, 2011, 04:43 PM
One concern people are having about using web pages for a remote is the concern about seeing the address bar and menu bars. Most web browsers have a 'kiosk mode". This mode will hide all menu and address bars. Google it for you particular web browser.
What we need are lots of samples on how to set up Girder and to set up basic HTML pages that can do what we relied on Netremote and MediaBridge before. For example, I would like to know how to set up Girder to do what MediaBridge did before. How to get the information to Girder from the media player and then how to access\display that on a web page.

jwilson56
March 26th, 2011, 08:20 PM
Personally I think I would keep Mediabridge in place and have the HTML front end talk to that. Also until I see options to browse my 900 CD library and drill up and down the tree on a webpage I will never be convinced that it will replace NR. As for turning on and off lights with an Android.. you can do that many different ways already with apps already out there.

shaun5
March 26th, 2011, 08:28 PM
Vic, for iOS devices you can develop the page as a web app. iOS web app gives the ability to have a custom icon and remove all the browser controls making the web page function and feel like an app.

There are a couple of challenges: 1)iOS 4.1+ eliminated the ability to preload sound files. So if you have something like a beep to indicate a button was pressed, the first time is delayed while the sound loads. 2)My page currently reloads on the iPad even when you are toggling between apps (even with a cache manifest). There are reports that the increased memory of the iPad 2 eliminates this on web pages, so it may fix/help the web app. If you access the web app with the browser vs. the icon, the page only reloads if you have several different web sites open in the browser.

Someone else may be able to comment how Android handles web apps...

shaun5
March 26th, 2011, 08:36 PM
John, I think one of the great things about using the Girder (with or without the web interface) is the ability to integrate everything into one system. I have RA2 in my house and have no interest in using Lutron's native app to control lighting. My girder web app does more than Lutron's (usage database, instant scene generation and play back) and I have one interface for everything...

tmorten
March 27th, 2011, 11:01 AM
Just to address some of the points discussed:

1. MediaBridge - My version of the Girder MediaBridge component supports album covers and drilling, just like NetRemote, and is fully accessible from the Girder webserver. Thread on this here: http://www.promixis.com/forums/showthread.php?20675-MediaBridge-Component

2. Address Bars and Icons - It's a simple matter to wrap a web page with PhoneGap (http://www.phonegap.com/) or a similar tool to make it act like a "native" app: this means an icon to launch, and no visible address bar.

Cheers,
Tim

Mike C
March 27th, 2011, 02:51 PM
Just to address some of the points discussed:



[b]2. Address Bars and Icons - It's a simple matter to wrap a web page with PhoneGap (http://www.phonegap.com/) or a similar tool to make it act like a "native" app: this means an icon to launch, and no visible address bar.

Cheers,
Tim

Very cool. .

jwilson56
March 27th, 2011, 04:49 PM
Tim if you run this webpage on an Android and then run a NR client on a desktop will they stay in sync when using JRMC showing the same zone?

tmorten
March 27th, 2011, 08:17 PM
Tim if you run this webpage on an Android and then run a NR client on a desktop will they stay in sync when using JRMC showing the same zone?

Affirmative; with MediaBridge as a lingua franca, multiple clients of NR and Girder webserver hosted pages stay in sync.

Cheers,
Tim

jwilson56
March 27th, 2011, 08:28 PM
Any idea of when you will get the editor to a beta stage to try out?

tmorten
March 27th, 2011, 10:09 PM
Any idea of when you will get the editor to a beta stage to try out?

I'd like to make some more progress before I lay out a timeline - I'm working on easier support for laying out image variables at the moment (ie - album covers). I'll post here and in the Girder forum once it's ready for preliminary feedback.

Best,
Tim

scriptx
March 30th, 2011, 03:49 PM
I think this is a mistake and ceases my interest in this product. If you remember when the first iPhone came out EVERYBODY was clamoring for native apps. If you look to your competitor's boards, it is the same situation when there is a web only interface. Look at CQC, Mainlobby, etc. A few minutes of research will prove fruitful. As a matter of interest, look at apps that have added native ones and the threads prior to the native release from packages such as Homeseer(which similarly had a web app).

You may have a web app wrapped in another app (adding more unnecessary complexity), but when your competition has native applications, people will move that way. Ask yourself how many people would rather use the thick Outlook client than the Dynamic Thin Client Outlook.

tmorten
March 31st, 2011, 01:02 AM
I think this is a mistake and ceases my interest in this product.

(SNIP)

You may have a web app wrapped in another app (adding more unnecessary complexity), but when your competition has native applications, people will move that way. Ask yourself how many people would rather use the thick Outlook client than the Dynamic Thin Client Outlook.

Sorry, but I prefer Gmail. Which, BTW is a web app.

To say a wrapper is complex demonstrates backwards thinking: wrapped HTML is SUBSTANTIALLY less complex than developing multiple native apps. If you want to prejudge quality based on some other company's web product, that's your choice... personally I think THAT is a mistake.

Cheers,
Tim

scriptx
March 31st, 2011, 10:20 AM
We use gmail with the Outlook integration and the only time me, or any of our employees use the web app is on the road. I'll race you adding appointments, dragging emails to tasks and creating contacts, etc. in Outlook vs. the thin client. The user experience is much better native. Ask yourself this, how many people use gmail's iPhone web page over the native iPhone mail app? I have never seen one yet. But, this is not an argument anybody will win. You have made up your mind, I have pointed you to areas you can easily research, and at the end of the day, it is your paycheck that you stand to loose.

quixote
March 31st, 2011, 12:30 PM
That's "lose", not "loose". Just for the record. Thanks.

Mike C
April 16th, 2011, 07:47 AM
would some like this be useful?


http://maqetta.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=11&Itemid=5

jwilson56
May 1st, 2011, 08:03 PM
Has there been any progress on the HTML Designer replacement for Netremote in the past month?

tmorten
May 2nd, 2011, 11:59 PM
Work continues, though to be clear it is definitely not intended as a replacement - NetRemote and Designer are robust solutions for PC and PPC. The browser based work I am doing will provide a GUI for creating a Girder webserver hosted interface compatible with other platforms, including iOS, Android, and WP7.

Cheers,
Tim

jwilson56
May 4th, 2011, 02:00 PM
Well considering most new tablets, smart phones or other portable touchscreen devices fall into the category of devices that will NOT run Netremote native I think it is safe to say that the eggs are in this basket. Portable tablets running Android or iPad are the future of GUI in the home. So I think there is much riding on this business decision.

yamy125
May 4th, 2011, 04:44 PM
Couldn't agree more.

Mastiff
May 17th, 2011, 06:13 AM
Yeah, it really, really, really needs to be done. Android is the future, PPC is the past (even though because of NR I am still on a Windows Mobile 6.5 phone and will be until there is a good solution for my Girder setup), and those yuppie things with the half eaten fruit on have their time now, but will be trampled under the Android's foot (dramatic enough for ya?). So I need a way to interact with my house from Android! :) Go, guys!

woniol
May 21st, 2011, 12:40 AM
Very interesting html framework: http://jquerymobile.com/

Mike C
May 24th, 2011, 10:40 PM
Very interesting html framework: http://jquerymobile.com/

that is cool

davidsetton
June 9th, 2011, 05:39 PM
Mike:

Any word on the timing for a web layout tool for net remote to be used with a android device.

tmorten
June 10th, 2011, 12:07 PM
Mike:

Any word on the timing for a web layout tool for net remote to be used with a android device.

I'll post a status update my development week -- to be clear, what I am working on is not NetRemote, but a web interface for Girder which can be run on Android, iOS, Win Phone 7, Playbook, WebOS, etc. It will provide basic layout capabilities, but I don't expect the first release will have the same flexibility as NetRemote and Designer.

Cheers,
Tim

tmorten
June 17th, 2011, 08:27 PM
Quick update, for those who are interested in my web-based project. I've had good success with creating a drag and drop interface. Rudimentary support for text and image variables is in place. I'm currently working on feature robustness and optimization. When I reach a point where I need a volunteer to try this out on their own setup, I will post here. I still have a fair amount of development and testing to do, but I'm very excited about the potential.

Cheers,
Tim

yonu
July 25th, 2011, 11:31 PM
just out of curiosity how is the project coming?

tmorten
July 26th, 2011, 12:13 PM
Slowly... :)

Hoping to have another update soon.

Cheers,
Tim

yonu
March 21st, 2012, 01:58 PM
any chance of at least an alpha release?

Mastiff
March 22nd, 2012, 04:15 AM
After 8 months my guess is that this project got lost in the shuffle...

tmorten
March 31st, 2012, 06:33 AM
any chance of at least an alpha release?

Just wrapping up a side-project, but I'll get back to this very soon. Knowing that there's at least one person enthusiastic about trying it will definitely motivate me!

Cheers,
Tim

Mastiff
March 31st, 2012, 09:44 AM
Eh...two, if you are going to make something that can be used on Android tablets! At the moment I'm using the multi-user log-on hack to Remote Desktop with a virtual XP running on the server. It works, but I would love to get rid of it and have full NetRemote funcitonality on Android! :)

pfeifer
April 1st, 2012, 05:05 AM
I join too ......
:rolleyes:

Solosid
April 3rd, 2012, 05:56 PM
I'm waiting...Anticipating!!

tmorten
April 21st, 2012, 07:39 AM
Thanks for the support!

For those who have expressed interest, when you have a chance, PM me with the following:

1. What device / browser / screen resolution do you plan to use for your primary control surface?
2. Is your primary use-case to control a media player via MediaBridge, or to control other devices through Girder?
3. How important is custom layout for music to you? Might a canned layout suit your needs, or is there a reason you need full customization?
4. How important is variable support to you? If important, do you use image variables, or just data variables?
5. How important is scripting support to you? If important, are you already familiar with Javascript, or just LUA?
6. Are you familiar with any other scripting or programming languages?
7. Are there any NetRemote plug-ins that you currently rely on?
8. What version of Girder are you running, and is your Girder server always on?
9. Are there any devices you wish you could control through Girder that you currently cannot?
10. Is there any external web content that you would like to be able to integrate with your control interface (weather, camera feeds, etc)?
BONUS: If you had one feature request that is most important to you, what would it be?

Thanks,
Tim

Mike C
April 28th, 2012, 08:46 AM
Hi Tim

1. iPhone to tablet size...
2. Control other devices via Girder
3. Not important
4. Data/image
5. Minimal, Lua
6. Little bit.
7. No.
8. G 5.1. Always on.
9. No.
10. Weather.

jwilson56
December 27th, 2012, 08:46 AM
Well its at the end of 2012.... the world didn't end but my guess is this project did.

tmorten
December 27th, 2012, 07:53 PM
Just moving slowly due to the muted response I got. Glad there is still interest on your part though!

Happy holidays!

Best,
Tim

Mastiff
December 28th, 2012, 01:30 AM
I'm still waiting as well. :) Patiently, while I still use my HTC HD2 cell phone. I would like to upgrade to something fun in Android or Windows Phone 8, but I'm staying on the HTC until I can use at least NetRemote's J.River Media Center control. My son makes do with JRMC's Gizmo, but the panel system of NetRemote is so much better and more efficient for my use.

kwaugh
December 28th, 2012, 10:06 AM
I'm very hopeful that NR doesn't disappear on us. I'm with those that say there's nothing better and nothing else like it. I've just started a new project to redo some screens with a 'metro' look and it's a snap in NR. My '13 wish list would be a version of NR that runs on the MS Surface RT...

Mastiff
December 28th, 2012, 03:26 PM
My '13 wish list would be a version of NR that runs on the MS Surface RT...

So you're the guy who actually bought one! :rolleyes:

kwaugh
December 29th, 2012, 01:23 PM
Not yet, but I have a friend that works for MS, so I think I can get one for the employee price, which would make it too good to pass up. I'm loving win 8 on my dell convertible. As much as I like iOS and android, and can switch to building my UIs via web pages, nothing beats NR for me! Especially with access to LUA...

Mastiff
December 29th, 2012, 01:37 PM
He-he, I was satirical because of the rather lacklustre sales figures, but if you like Win 8, then good for you. I figure the way things are going now, I'll probably be on Win 7 as long as I was on Win XP, which was until Win 7 SP1 came out! I tried Win 8 for a week, and I must say that if I had tried any longer, I would probably have put my Norwegian viking axe through the monitor! I hated it as much as I hate iOS. Maybe that's why you like them both, that there is something in Windows 8 that's "inspired" by iOS? Android is OK for a tablet or a very large phone (I'm considering Note III when that comes out, if there's a working NetRemote solution by then), but for a regular size phone I like Windows Mobile 6.5 better. I may be able to live with a Windows Phone 8, like I mentioned I have been looking at those, but I don't know that yet.